Liberal Christianity 2

[Fawzo]

You are saying the point of the prodigal son story is about the son that left and returned?

His father said to him, 'My child, you're always with me. Everything I have is yours. 32 But we have something to celebrate, something to be happy about. This brother of yours was dead but has come back to life. He was lost but has been found.'" Luke 15:31-32 (GW)

In short my answer to your question is Yes.

The point of the prodigal son to me is about a person who follows the call of the ego which only holds our attention for so long. When the awareness of how much more blissful things are at home hits us, we turn humbly and return home to open arms and rejoin in the Sonship of God where we have everything.

The desire for more and adventure is the hook the ego lures us away with. Love is the light that leads us home. Not threats of hell and eternal damnation.

Edited July 10, 2010 by Fawzo

[RevRainbow]

Love is the light that leads us home.

Dang it, Fawzo, every once in a while you come forth with an amazing saying!

Edited July 10, 2010 by RevRainbow

[Fawzo]

Dang it, Fawzo, every once in a while you come forth with an amazing saying!

Well I'm probably not the first to say it, but I need great sayings like that to keep pace with the company I keep

Lucky for us when Dad turns on the nightlight he doesn't turn it off until all his children make it home.

[RevRainbow]

Well I'm probably not the first to say it, but I need great sayings like that to keep pace with the company I keep

Lucky for us when Dad turns on the nightlight he doesn't turn it off until all his children make it home.

Instead of the fatted calf, could I get a BLT?

[Coolhand]

His father said to him, 'My child, you're always with me. Everything I have is yours. 32 But we have something to celebrate, something to be happy about. This brother of yours was dead but has come back to life. He was lost but has been found.'" Luke 15:31-32 (GW)

In short my answer to your question is Yes.

The point of the prodigal son to me is about a person who follows the call of the ego which only holds our attention for so long. When the awareness of how much more blissful things are at home hits us, we turn humbly and return home to open arms and rejoin in the Sonship of God where we have everything.

The desire for more and adventure is the hook the ego lures us away with. Love is the light that leads us home. Not threats of hell and eternal damnation.

Could it be that Jesus was actually telling that parable to deal with the older brother, the older brother representing the Pharisees and the Jews that had a problem with the Gentiles entering the kingdom of heaven/God? And also (but secondary) the returning brother.

15 Now the tax collectors and “sinners” were all gathering around to hear him. 2 But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.”

The Holy Bible : New International Version (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996, c1984), Lk 15:1-2.

[Pete]

Could it be that Jesus was actually telling that parable to deal with the older brother, the older brother representing the Pharisees and the Jews that had a problem with the Gentiles entering the kingdom of heaven/God? And also (but secondary) the returning brother.

15 Now the tax collectors and "sinners" were all gathering around to hear him. 2 But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, "This man welcomes sinners and eats with them."

The Holy Bible : New International Version (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996, c1984), Lk 15:1-2.

Ignoring previous comments which would only lead to further disagreement (IMO) and following the now topic.

If Jesus did say these things and I am not saying he definitely did, then they do follow a theme which also includes the lost sheep and the lost coin. These all show a person (referring to God) actively seeking the return and a welcoming nature to that return. That theme is one of a God ever open and welcoming to those who return or come to God.

Liberals and Fundamentalists both argue that God welcomes all, even if the terms of that welcome may differing in some church denominations.

[Coolhand]

Ignoring previous comments which would only lead to further disagreement (IMO) and following the now topic.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

If Jesus did say these things and I am not saying he definitely did, then they do follow a theme which also includes the lost sheep and the lost coin. These all show a person (referring to God) actively seeking the return and a welcoming nature to that return. That theme is one of a God ever open and welcoming to those who return or come to God.

Who was Jesus telling the parable to?

Liberals and Fundamentalists both argue that God welcomes all, even if the terms of that welcome may differing in some church denominations.

I'm not arguing that or disagreeing with that.

[Fawzo]

Ignoring previous comments which would only lead to further disagreement (IMO) and following the now topic.

If Jesus did say these things and I am not saying he definitely did, then they do follow a theme which also includes the lost sheep and the lost coin. These all show a person (referring to God) actively seeking the return and a welcoming nature to that return. That theme is one of a God ever open and welcoming to those who return or come to God.

Liberals and Fundamentalists both argue that God welcomes all, even if the terms of that welcome may differing in some church denominations.

Thanks for the additional points that slipped my mind Pete.

Jesus spoke to them using this illustration: 4 “Suppose a man has 100 sheep and loses one of them. Doesn't he leave the 99 sheep grazing in the pasture and look for the lost sheep until he finds it? 5 When he finds it, he's happy. He puts that sheep on his shoulders and 6 goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says to them, ‘Let's celebrate! I've found my lost sheep!' 7 I can guarantee that there will be more happiness in heaven over one person who turns to God and changes the way he thinks and acts than over 99 people who already have turned to God and have his approval.” Luke 15:3-7 (GW)

I don't think God gives a rats hiney whether one is baptized or confirmed, or what denomination one holds to be true. God notices how one treats others and the world we live in and where one's focus spends the majority of it's time and what one seeks.

Could it be that Jesus was actually telling that parable to deal with the older brother, the older brother representing the Pharisees and the Jews that had a problem with the Gentiles entering the kingdom of heaven/God? And also (but secondary) the returning brother.

15 Now the tax collectors and "sinners" were all gathering around to hear him. 2 But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, "This man welcomes sinners and eats with them."

The Holy Bible : New International Version (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996, c1984), Lk 15:1-2.

Cool do you feel this is the major theme that runs throughout the parables and is a major key as stated by the verse? Those sinners and tax collectors were most likely Jews who ate with Christ. Do you know where any Gentiles ate with him?

[RevRainbow]

As I understand it, Jesus was sent to minister to the lost sheep of Israel. His mission was to the Jews. It was not until after His resurrection that salvation came to the Gentiles. Evidently, the Gentiles were not lost, they were never part of the family! Now, we Goyem can be adopted, grafted into the Vine,

[Pete]

As I understand it, Jesus was sent to minister to the lost sheep of Israel. His mission was to the Jews. It was not until after His resurrection that salvation came to the Gentiles. Evidently, the Gentiles were not lost, they were never part of the family! Now, we Goyem can be adopted, grafted into the Vine,

It is also interesting that the Gospel says in the same Chapter that this was the result of a rebuff with the Pharisees. (Luke 15:2)

Yet, Pharisees were not seen as a significant sect at the time of Jesus but grew more influential towards the later days of the Temple in Jerusalem and were very significant after the Roman destruction.

It seems that Pharisees were given bad press from the Gospels during the time of Jesus. Although it is said that their views changed -

" In general, whereas the Sadducees were conservative, aristocratic monarchists, the Pharisees were eclectic, popular and more democratic. (Roth 1970: 84)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharisees

In the New Testament the Pharisees appear as Jesus' most vocal critics. Their insistence on ritual observance of the letter rather than the spirit of the law evoked strong denunciation by Jesus; he called them "white washed tombs" (Matt. 23:27) and self - righteous lovers of display (Matt. 6:1 - 6, 16 - 18). The Pharisees are portrayed as plotting to destroy Jesus (Matt. 12:14), although they do not figure in the accounts of his arrest and trial. Despite Jesus' attacks on the Pharisees - which were possibly on unrepresentative members of the sect - he shared many beliefs with them, including the resurrection of the dead.

http://mb-soft.com/b...xc/pharisee.htm

"Jews maintain that the Pharisees were unfairly maligned in the Gospels, which accuse them of rigid formalism, self-righteousness, hypocrisy, and externalism. In truth, the Pharisees ... stressed devotion of the heart, worship of God for its own sake, and the obligation to go beyond the letter of the law."⁷

http://www.pfo.org/pharisee.htm

The article suggests that if the criticism did occur it maybe towards a small group of Pharisees rather than all Pharisees as the Gospels suggest.

--------- -------------------- -------------------------------

It is thought by many liberals and others that the Gospel included the disputes with Pharisees because that is the group the early Christians met (rather than Jesus) most opposition from and they were opponents fighting for the future of Judaism.

http://www.pbs.org/w...utm_source=grid

( see:- 27:31 - 32:00/ 1:53:14)

Edited July 11, 2010 by Pete

[Pete]

http://www.pbs.org/w...utm_source=grid

see Part 2 of from Jesus to Christ:- 27:31 - 32:00/ 1:53:14

Yet, despite the reference of who it is said to, I think most see it nowadays from a personal meaning rather than an historic reference.

Edited July 11, 2010 by Pete

[Bro. Hex]

As I understand it, Jesus was sent to minister to the lost sheep of Israel. His mission was to the Jews. It was not until after His resurrection that salvation came to the Gentiles. Evidently, the Gentiles were not lost, they were never part of the family! Now, we Goyem can be adopted, grafted into the Vine,

But I LIKE being Goyem,

and I don't want anybody cutting on ME!

[Fawzo]

But I LIKE being Goyem,

and I don't want anybody cutting on ME!

A deity that is worried about the shape of my penis is not the kind of being I want to spend an an eterenity with, I wondered if he practiced designing it with Soild Woks or Play-Doh before he went into production. I would have liked a little LED light on mine for when the lights are out.

Edited July 12, 2010 by Fawzo

[RevRainbow]

How did this meander into discussing schmucks?

[Bro. Hex]

How did this meander into discussing schmucks?

Or putz?

[bsawtelle]

A deity that is worried about the shape of my penis is not the kind of being I want to spend an an eterenity with, I wondered if he practiced designing it with Soild Woks or Play-Doh before he went into production. I would have liked a little LED light on mine for when the lights are out.

Fawzo is just looking for any excuse to whip it out. "But officer - the lights went out." "The train only entered a tunnel sir - It was not a blackout."

[Coolhand]

Cool do you feel this is the major theme that runs throughout the parables and is a major key as stated by the verse? Those sinners and tax collectors were most likely Jews who ate with Christ. Do you know where any Gentiles ate with him?

My opinion is that Jesus taught about the Kingdom of God/Heaven almost exclusively; which makes sense after reading the OT prophets and their comments regarding the Gentile inclusion in the Kingdom. In my opinion Jesus went to the Jews to "wake them up" in regard to their responsibility of welcoming the Gentiles into the kingdom of Heaven, which they we not doing: “to the Jew first, and then to the Gentile.”

I do not know if Jesus ate with Gentiles, but he ate with others who we just as “offensive” to the religious elite at the time.

The main unifying Biblical theme (in my opinion) from Gen 3 to the end is the Kingdom of God/Heaven. The theme of the parables (in my opinion) is lost if they are not understood through this Kingdom perspective; for example:

16 Jesus told his disciples: “There was a rich man whose manager was accused of wasting his possessions. 2 So he called him in and asked him, ‘What is this I hear about you? Give an account of your management, because you cannot be manager any longer.’

3 “The manager said to himself, ‘What shall I do now? My master is taking away my job. I’m not strong enough to dig, and I’m ashamed to beg— 4 I know what I’ll do so that, when I lose my job here, people will welcome me into their houses.’

5 “So he called in each one of his master’s debtors. He asked the first, ‘How much do you owe my master?’

6 “‘Eight hundred gallons of olive oil,’ he replied.

“The manager told him, ‘Take your bill, sit down quickly, and make it four hundred.’

7 “Then he asked the second, ‘And how much do you owe?’

“‘A thousand bushels of wheat,’ he replied.

“He told him, ‘Take your bill and make it eight hundred.’

8 “The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light. 9 I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.

10 “Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. 11 So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? 12 And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else’s property, who will give you property of your own?

13 “No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.”

14 The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. 15 He said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God’s sight.

The Holy Bible : New International Version (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996, c1984), Lk 16:1-15.

I have heard people butcher the meaning of this parable (in my opinion), and apart from the realization that God blesses people in order for them to draw others into the Kingdom, this parable would seem to be justifying and praising corrupt dealings.

[Pete]

I agree that much of the parables are on the theme of the Kingdom of God and sometimes are led into with words the Kingdom of God is like....

I also think there are some parables that have universal theme such as the Good Samaritan which depicts the religious elite passing by and the presumed enemy going to his aid. I see it as saying that the love a persons is of greater value than all religious titles.

Another is that has meaning on a universal theme is the mustard seed. That which a person may view as small, may also have the power to grow to greatness whether it be in faith or acts of love. For some that which you feed, although small, will grow and has the power to grow greater. It reminds me of the acorn and the Oak tree. This can also be reversed and one can say a small evil also has the power to grow to greater evil and therefore one should take care of what you build on both within and in one relations with others and God.

[RabbiO]

I think that Pete's original statement... that "unlike Christians or Muslims, Jews (most Jews) do not believe in an Afterlife"...that statement is essentially accurate.

Gee, it would be nice if there were Jews who were members of the forum. Then we could ask them.

[Pete]

Gee, it would be nice if there were Jews who were members of the forum. Then we could ask them.

It would of been great to have you turn up earlier, but since we did not have you, we used websites like:- http://www.religionf...s/afterlife.htm

Which says things like :- "The Torah and Talmud alike focus on the purpose of earthly life, which is to fulfill one's duties to God and one's fellow man. Succeeding at this brings reward, failing at it brings punishment. Whether rewards and punishments continue after death, or whether anything at all happens after death, is not as important. Despite the subject's general exclusion from the Jewish sacred texts, however, Judaism does incorporate views on the afterlife. Yet unlike the other monotheistic religions, no one view has ever been officially agreed upon, and there is much room for speculation."

My point was that Islam and Christianity have definite views on what will happen in the after life but Judaism does not and it was interesting (IMO) to consider that they both boast their origins within Judaism.

When I read the links on Judaism's approach of letting God decide on the after life and not prescribing things ourselves it was something that I personally found an admiration for.

However, this comment raised a lot debate which I do not wish to return to.

"Yesterday is history

Tomorrow is a mystery

Today is a gift. " - Alice Morse Earle

Maybe you could email me with your thoughts?

Edited July 14, 2010 by Pete