Liberal Christianity 2

[Bro. Hex]

That is the most pharisaical anti-Semitic anti-Christian statement I have heard. Are you suggesting because they are Messianic that they are not Jewish?

I think this would be an excellent juncture to perhaps either start a NEW THREAD called:

What do Jews Believe about "The Afterlife"?,

or perhaps a thread under Sacred Texts to discuss

What is the meaning of The Book of Daniel, 12:1-3?

THEN we could all go back to discussing Liberal Christianity here.

Otherwise, I think I am going to have to start a thread called Liberal Christianity-3

Edited July 6, 2010 by Hexalpa

[Brother Michael Sky]

Messianic Jews are a Christian movement and most Jews do not recognise them as part of Judaism and there are so few of them that describing them as average or typical Jews is hardly fitting (IMO).

See:- http://www.religious...rg/mess_jud.htm

Asking Messianic Jews about Judaism and its connection to Christian beliefs is a bit like asking the pope for an unbiased view on Catholicism.

Thank you pete. I was asking a Jew about their view on the fact that Messianic Jews exist... I wanted to know ( and still do.. )the personal feelings on the matter from a perspective of a more orthodox jew.. There is a significant ( i was led to believe...) Messianic Jew community in Israel itself, I was curious to know what a " true " jew thought of this.... the differences seem insurmountable from an outside prospective yet those who profess these beliefs have a line of reasoning for it....

I believe my verbal clumsiness was the cause of my being ignored, however ..... at least the question wasn't loudly asked in my southern twang.... ... it WAS easy to ignore.....

how are we to know when we are being a total dweeb with a question, unless a polite " c'mon man, be quiet " is forthcoming...

[Brother Michael Sky]

My point was that there is no remission of sin accept through Christ. Its not a question of; "if you do not obey him you will fry". I agree with you in the sense that the is of no consequence for Christians who have firmly established their faith in God through Christ. But the devil is of influence in those who are wishy-washy in their belief. "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth" (Revelation 3:16). I'd ask you that if most liberals don't believe Jesus died for our sins, whether or not you also don't believe he was resurrected from the dead? I don't understand how a person professes to be Christian if they are in denial of those 2 essential tenants of the faith?

It's not denial of the tenets....

being wishy-washy in belief could describe those who have stopped seeking as well, couldn't it Dan? We are supposed to meet the Lord halfway, right?

There are layers to any Spiritual Text... we honestly have the same foundation for the beliefs we hold ( in this instance, for this example... ) I see the facts of these events as having a slightly different meaning.... with the same " basic " importance... I also feel I have personal experience, witnessed by my very own senses, which ignite a fire under my belief which never was possible when i was reading letters off a page, and trying to find gidance there... I believe my faith to be rather heated....

[Bro. Hex]

It's not denial of the tenets....

being wishy-washy in belief could describe those who have stopped seeking as well, couldn't it Dan? We are supposed to meet the Lord halfway, right?

There are layers to any Spiritual Text... we honestly have the same foundation for the beliefs we hold ( in this instance, for this example... ) I see the facts of these events as having a slightly different meaning.... with the same " basic " importance... I also feel I have personal experience, witnessed by my very own senses, which ignite a fire under my belief which never was possible when i was reading letters off a page, and trying to find guidance there... I believe my faith to be rather heated....

Nice post, Michael!

And as we all know, wishy-washy and heat don't go together.

If you want wishy-washy you have to reach for a SLUSHY...or a SNOW CONE...

Mmmmmmmmm sounds good in this HEAT!

[Pete]

That is the most pharisaical anti-Semitic anti-Christian statement I have heard. Are you suggesting because they are Messianic that they are not Jewish?

Why is it antisemitic? Being Jewish and part of Judaism are two very different things.

Anyways don't take my word on it see:-

Messianic Judaism is a Christian religious movement. It differs from mainstream Christianity in that it combines Christian theology (the centrality of Jesus as Messiah, savior, and God) with selected elements of Jewish ritual and terminology.....

Judaism

Jewish theology rejects the idea that the messiah (or any other person) is a divinity,^[13] and such an idea has often been regarded as idolatrous. Nor does Judaism view the role of the messiah to be the salvation of the world from its sins (an idea widely accepted by Christians and messianic Jews). Judaism does not accept Jesus as the biblical messiah, nor does it assign him any religious role at all. Contrary to Messianic Jew or Christian thoughts, Jewish theological beliefs concerning Jesus center around the following points, all of which serve to invalidate Jesus (Yeshua) as the Messiah, according to Jewish theology.

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish?^[13]

The Tanakh says that he will:

A.) Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

B.) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

C.) Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

D.) Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

Jesus (Yeshua) did not accomplish any of these prophecies to be considered the Messiah in Jewish eyes.

http://en.wikipedia....ssianic_Judaism

If one defines a religion according to the deity that they worship, then Messianic Jews are actually Christians because they recognize the existence of the Christian Trinity and the divinity of Yeshua.

http://www.religious...rg/mess_jud.htm

Messianic Judaism is not seen as a legitimate form of Judaism by any recognized Jewish organization or leaders, apart from a handful of dissenting voices among the Reform and Reconstructionist Jewish movements.

http://www.wordiq.co...ssianic_Judaism

Edited July 6, 2010 by Pete

[Tsukino_Rei]

Why is it antisemitic? Being Jewish and part of Judaism are two very different things.

Anyways don't take my word on it see:-

Messianic Judaism is a Christian religious movement. It differs from mainstream Christianity in that it combines Christian theology (the centrality of Jesus as Messiah, savior, and God) with selected elements of Jewish ritual and terminology.....

Judaism

Jewish theology rejects the idea that the messiah (or any other person) is a divinity,^[13] and such an idea has often been regarded as idolatrous. Nor does Judaism view the role of the messiah to be the salvation of the world from its sins (an idea widely accepted by Christians and messianic Jews). Judaism does not accept Jesus as the biblical messiah, nor does it assign him any religious role at all. Contrary to Messianic Jew or Christian thoughts, Jewish theological beliefs concerning Jesus center around the following points, all of which serve to invalidate Jesus (Yeshua) as the Messiah, according to Jewish theology.

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish?^[13]

The Tanakh says that he will:

A.) Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

B.) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

C.) Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

D.) Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

Jesus (Yeshua) did not accomplish any of these prophecies to be considered the Messiah in Jewish eyes.

http://en.wikipedia....ssianic_Judaism

If one defines a religion according to the deity that they worship, then Messianic Jews are actually Christians because they recognize the existence of the Christian Trinity and the divinity of Yeshua.

http://www.religious...rg/mess_jud.htm

Messianic Judaism is not seen as a legitimate form of Judaism by any recognized Jewish organization or leaders, apart from a handful of dissenting voices among the Reform and Reconstructionist Jewish movements.

http://www.wordiq.co...ssianic_Judaism

Pete's right. I'm friends with some Liberal Jews and even they view Messianic Judaism as strictly a branch of Christianity, quite adamantly. The idea of Messianic Judaism as a branch of Judaism is actually quite anti-semetic to them, in no small part because these Christians have a tendency to waltz into Synagogues and claim that they have True Judaism and all these other Jews have been blinded by Satan.

Edited July 6, 2010 by Tsukino_Rei

[Pete]

Pete's right. I'm friends with some Liberal Jews and even they view Messianic Judaism as strictly a branch of Christianity, quite adamantly. The idea of Messianic Judaism as a branch of Judaism is actually quite anti-semetic to them, in no small part because these Christians have a tendency to waltz into Synagogues and claim that they have True Judaism and all these other Jews have been blinded by Satan.

As the article I quoted says:- "All mainstream Jewish denominations and organizations hold that Messianic Jews are not practicing Judaism, but Protestant Christianity. Messianic Judaism is condemned as heretical and non-Jewish by Reform, Orthodox, Conservative, and Reconstructionist Judaism."

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Messianic_Judaism

[RevRainbow]

So when the challenge was made as to "have you ever met a Jew who believed in an afterlife," it did not include Messianic Jews? Oh, someone should have pointed that out. Cool was not wrong in choosing his answer because the exception was not noted. Pete is not right in reference to Cool's answer since he merely wants to discredit the answer by adding a later stipulation to the question. You guys first have to define your terms and then any conditions which apply. IMO, it was not a good question, it was not a good answer and it was not a good rebuttal.

Edited July 6, 2010 by RevRainbow

[bsawtelle]

So when the challenge was made as to "have you ever met a Jew who believed in an afterlife," it did not include Messianic Jews? Oh, someone should have pointed that out. Cool was not wrong in choosing his answer because the exception was not noted. Pete is not right in reference to Cool's answer since he merely wants to discredit the answer by adding a later stipulation to the question. You guys first have to define your terms and then any conditions which apply. IMO, it was not a good question, it was not a good answer and it was not a good rebuttal.

IMHO none of this discussion has been very good as there is too much opinionated finger pointing. It seems that even though this is a forum for open discussion, there are many that are taking the perspective that their opinion is the only correct opinion. I aim that accusation at both sides of the issue. There have been a number of posts that are on the verge of accusatory and non-tolerant of other people's beliefs. I have stayed out of this for quite a while, but I agree with Rainbow here and feel the need to express it. People are trying to play gotcha games and maneuvering like it is a game of chess rather than having an open and honest discussion. Again - this is just my 2 cents worth.

[Pete]

So when the challenge was made as to "have you ever met a Jew who believed in an afterlife," it did not include Messianic Jews? Oh, someone should have pointed that out. Cool was not wrong in choosing his answer because the exception was not noted. Pete is not right in reference to Cool's answer since he merely wants to discredit the answer by adding a later stipulation to the question. You guys first have to define your terms and then any conditions which apply. IMO, it was not a good question, it was not a good answer and it was not a good rebuttal.

This topic has taken many twists and turns and has gone a long way (IMO) from the liberal Christianity it started with.

I have re-read the articles again and I think you do have a point. The conversation did lead with the comment of "not knowing a Jew" and did not qualify one of Judaism who believed in the afterlife and therefore Cools reply is valid.

However, the topic that led to that comment was on the subject of fundamentalist Christians believing something that Judaism does not and yet they claim a root with it. See :- #375

This was brought about by my having to justify myself and others for claiming our right to have A differing view of the afterlife and still claiming to be of Christianity.

I think the problem here is the confusion between the word "Jew" and that of a follower of "Judaism". A Jew does not necessarily follow any religion, but followers of Judaism have a differing view on the afterlife and Jesus to that fundamental Christians.

I apologize for my part in that confusion and thank you Rev Rainbow for getting me to look again, but I do not think I was the only one confused or the only one responsible for that confusion.

Edited July 7, 2010 by Pete

[RevRainbow]

I agree with your response, brother Pete, especially about it being confusing. No need to apologize to me, I just wanted to call attention to what was happening. I do think your point about Judaism (as well as mine about ULC ordination) should enlighten us to the fact that whatever belief system you employ, there will be others who just cant see it your/our way. Methinks we certainly can share differences as well as similarities (how else so we gain knowledge, insight and even higher levels of understanding).

All in all, I believe we do care for one another around here and we do want to learn, why else would we be so frustrated at times! Is there anyone among us who has been here for a while, who will not agree that whatever our faith, this forum has caused us to grow spiritually?

Peace.

[Bro. Hex]

All in all, I believe we do care for one another around here and we do want to learn, why else would we be so frustrated at times! Is there anyone among us who has been here for a while, who will not agree that whatever our faith, this forum has caused us to grow spiritually?

You are right, Rev Rainbow, we do care about each other here, and I must confess that I am the one who is principally responsible for all of the confusion over the issue of Jewishness vs. Judaism by conflating the two into one.

[RevRainbow]

You are right, Rev Rainbow, we do care about each other here, and I must confess that I am the one who is principally responsible for all of the confusion over the issue of Jewishness vs. Judaism by conflating the two into one.

Dammit, man, ya confused me again...had to look up "conflating."

[Tsukino_Rei]

IMHO none of this discussion has been very good as there is too much opinionated finger pointing. It seems that even though this is a forum for open discussion, there are many that are taking the perspective that their opinion is the only correct opinion. I aim that accusation at both sides of the issue. There have been a number of posts that are on the verge of accusatory and non-tolerant of other people's beliefs. I have stayed out of this for quite a while, but I agree with Rainbow here and feel the need to express it. People are trying to play gotcha games and maneuvering like it is a game of chess rather than having an open and honest discussion. Again - this is just my 2 cents worth.

*bursts into song*

Let's talk about sects baby!

Let's talk about you and me

Let's talk about all the good things

And the bad things that may be

Let's talk about sects!

Edited July 7, 2010 by Tsukino_Rei

[Pete]

*bursts into song*

Let's talk about sects baby!

Let's talk about you and me

Let's talk about all the good things

And the bad things that may be

Let's talk about sects!

I think most major faiths denominations were sects at one time. It is hard when you are saying something different to what others expect you too (IMO).

Yet, because a thing is different that does not mean that it is without foundation or has not truths within it.

For some it is the perception of odd and differing beliefs and to others it is seen as pointing out that the King may have no clothes or at least is missing some.

Christianity itself was a sect of Judaism at one time (the new way).

Life is never without interest and we learn more each day (IMO). Some of that is comfortable and some of that is not, but life goes on regardless.

[Coolhand]

Pete, the question I was answering was this:

I cannot answer for the Jewish people.

And I cannot accept "one man's answer",

no matter how learned that one man might be.

I can only say that I have never met a Jew who believed in an afterlife,

and I have worked with, socialized with, and been acquainted with

many Jews over the last 40+ years.

I have broken bread with Jews, gotten shnockered with Jews, and I have attended Jewish funerals.

Not once has any belief in an afterlife been expressed...and yes, the subject has "come up"many times

Have you ever met a Jew who believed in an afterlife?

˓

Which I answered:

Absolutely! I was taking Hebrew from a Messianic Rabbi for a while; he absolutley believes in an after life; with Jesus.

http://www.kehilatariel.org/wordpress/

To which you commented:

Messianic Jews are a Christian movement and most Jews do not recognise them as part of Judaism and there are so few of them that describing them as average or typical Jews is hardly fitting (IMO).

See:- http://www.religious...rg/mess_jud.htm

Asking Messianic Jews about Judaism and its connection to Christian beliefs is a bit like asking the pope for an unbiased view on Catholicism.

All your comment does is discrediting non-orthodox Jews for their non-orthodox views; which to me is a bit like the pot calling the kettle black coming from you while you are arguing for non-orthodox views yourself. Are you paying attention to what you are saying?

Regardless, Hex asked if I knew any Jews that believe in an afterlife. Are you suggesting that though Messianic Jews are non-orthodox that they are not Jews? The point was:

YES, THERE ARE JEWS THAT BELIEVE IN THE AFTERLIFE.

If you are then you just killed your entire premise for calling yourself a Christian, because then orthodoxy would get to decide who is and who isn’t, as your double standard proves in the case of the Jews.

As Hex had suggested here in regard to determining the author's intent in the passage in Daniel:

If you are trying to get at

"what did the author intend to communicate?"

I think we would need for a Jew to answer that question for us.

I don't think that we Gentiles

have an appropriate frame-of-reference.

Another point can be made that Messianic Jews are potentially the best people to understand the whole Bible, Old and New Testaments because of their heritage. Yet is seems that they are the MOST marginalized group according to the posters in this topic based in thier race and thier religion.

SUMMARY

Non-orthodox Christians seem to believe non-orthodox viewpoints are in invalid for Jews, but preferred for gentiles which is a double standard; in the favor of the liberal Christian (surprise surprise).

Edited July 7, 2010 by Coolhand

[Coolhand]

By the way Pete, the only way (in my opinion) for your point to be close to having any relevancy would be if you make the assumption that I was somehow referring to Messianic Jews that are Gentile converts. But I was never referring to Gentiles in any way when I was addressing Messinic Jews; I was reffering to people of Jewish heritage and Jewish decent that see Yeshua (Jesus) as the Messiah that was foretold in the Tanakh.

[RevRainbow]

I thought this Jewish/Judaic thingy was dealt with and done.People apologized for the confusion and misunderstandings. Your answer was already vindicated. Why, Cool, are you continuing to push the issue?

[Dan56]

However, the topic that led to that comment was on the subject of fundamentalist Christians believing something that Judaism does not and yet they claim a root with it. See :- #375

This was brought about by my having to justify myself and others for claiming our right to have A differing view of the afterlife and still claiming to be of Christianity.

Christianity does share roots in Judaism, Jesus didn't change one jot or tittle of the law, but the New Covenant is what differentiates the faiths. Same God, but different interpretations of books like Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc.

You don't need to justify anything Pete. I think its great that you believe what makes sense to you. From a fundamentalist point of view, its a start Perhaps the main difference between fundamentalist and liberals is that liberals discard what they find contradicting and fallible about the bible, while fundamentalist assume the bible is correct and anything that we can't embrace, can't grasp, or can't agree with, is the result of our own lack of understanding. I hope we all keep questioning and wondering about what doesn't make sense to us. "And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart" (Jeremiah 29:13).

[Bro. Hex]

Christianity does share roots in Judaism, Jesus didn't change one jot or tittle of the law, but the New Covenant is what differentiates the faiths. Same God, but different interpretations of books like Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc.

You don't need to justify anything Pete. I think its great that you believe what makes sense to you. From a fundamentalist point of view, its a start Perhaps the main difference between fundamentalist and liberals is that liberals discard what they find contradicting and fallible about the bible, while fundamentalist assume the bible is correct and anything that we can't embrace, can't grasp, or can't agree with, is the result of our own lack of understanding. I hope we all keep questioning and wondering about what doesn't make sense to us. "And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart" (Jeremiah 29:13).

Excellent Post, Dan!!!