To Be A Christian Or Not To Be A Christian

[RevRainbow]

Thank you for the very kind words, brother, which honors our heavenly Father.

Many times I have been accused of distorting scripture (sound familiar, Coolhand?), but then, can we not say that we all do such in a manner? For myself, I see the OT as a place where comparison and gospel "types" can be found and can use situations to try and clarify, in my sharing with others, what I believe.

Lately, my Heavenly Father has me perusing Exodus and Leviticus (oh, that leprosy thing!). In study, I ran across an interesting analogy I would like to especially share with you, BT. I was going to make it a sermon, but think it is more appropriate, presently, here.

In Exodus, Chapter 33, Moses resumes the journey after the people made the golden calf and were subsequently disciplined by God. As they traveled along, Moses took the tabernacle (the place where God was manifested) and placed it outside the camp. (preceding this, God commanded Moses to have all the people remove their "ornaments").

The verses that struck me were 7 through 11 from the KJRV:

"And it came to pass that everyone who sought the Lord went out unto the tabernacle of the congregation, which was outside the camp." -v7

"And the Lord spoke unto Moses face to face as a man speaks to a friend..." -v11

In the verses mentioned, the people stood in their tent doors and watched Moses as he went into the tabernacle (although they could have gone outside the camp if they had wanted, to get a closer look.

IMO, these verses tell me that if we seek God, we must go outside the camp - without ornaments. We can stand in the door of our tent and see whats happening from afar (and still be God's people), but if we want to talk with God face to face, and know Him as a "friend" we must come to Him, leaving all our earthly ornaments behind.

God is our heavenly Father, and, as I can attest, sometimes I was quite distant from my earthly father and we were not "friends." I respected my dad, but found him a strict disciplinarian and mean. My earthly dad was my father but not really a friend, one I could talk to and share with. Because of my fear of him, I never really "went in" to meet the real man, only respected and honored him from afar.

Religion, as I see it, is the camp. Our pastors/priests (supposedly) go outside and speak with God and come back and tell us what to do and how to do it (like Moses). Christ has shown me that now I have direct access to God, my Father, through Him. Camp is a good thing in that it places me with others who believe as I do (somewhat) and also affords protection. But if I truly want to talk with God, I must go outside the walls, outside the camp, alone, without adornment, and only then will He speak to me as one speaks to a friend. And, with Christ, He speaks to me as a son - for that I am.

Methinks, Blackthorn, that you have decided to step outside the camp and go into the tabernacle to meet God one-on-one. It is a most enlightening and wonderful experience which will follow. Christ Jesus has made this possible. Peace.

Edited October 31, 2008 by RevRainbow

[Cornelius]

Methinks, Blackthorn, that you have decided to step outside the camp and go into the tabernacle to meet God one-on-one. It is a most enlightening and wonderful experience which will follow. Christ Jesus has made this possible. Peace.

Thanks rev. A truly inspiring and thoughtful post.

I read the section you were talking about and something caught my eye I thought you would appreciate.

Exo 33:14 And he said, "My presence will go with you, and I will give you rest."

I've got to go to work but you have a good day

[RobinD69]

Thank you for the very kind words, brother, which honors our heavenly Father.

Many times I have been accused of distorting scripture (sound familiar, Coolhand?), but then, can we not say that we all do such in a manner? For myself, I see the OT as a place where comparison and gospel "types" can be found and can use situations to try and clarify, in my sharing with others, what I believe.

Lately, my Heavenly Father has me perusing Exodus and Leviticus (oh, that leprosy thing!). In study, I ran across an interesting analogy I would like to especially share with you, BT. I was going to make it a sermon, but think it is more appropriate, presently, here.

In Exodus, Chapter 33, Moses resumes the journey after the people made the golden calf and were subsequently disciplined by God. As they traveled along, Moses took the tabernacle (the place where God was manifested) and placed it outside the camp. (preceding this, God commanded Moses to have all the people remove their "ornaments").

The verses that struck me were 7 through 11 from the KJRV:

"And it came to pass that everyone who sought the Lord went out unto the tabernacle of the congregation, which was outside the camp." -v7

"And the Lord spoke unto Moses face to face as a man speaks to a friend..." -v11

In the verses mentioned, the people stood in their tent doors and watched Moses as he went into the tabernacle (although they could have gone outside the camp if they had wanted, to get a closer look.

IMO, these verses tell me that if we seek God, we must go outside the camp - without ornaments. We can stand in the door of our tent and see whats happening from afar (and still be God's people), but if we want to talk with God face to face, and know Him as a "friend" we must come to Him, leaving all our earthly ornaments behind.

God is our heavenly Father, and, as I can attest, sometimes I was quite distant from my earthly father and we were not "friends." I respected my dad, but found him a strict disciplinarian and mean. My earthly dad was my father but not really a friend, one I could talk to and share with. Because of my fear of him, I never really "went in" to meet the real man, only respected and honored him from afar.

Religion, as I see it, is the camp. Our pastors/priests (supposedly) go outside and speak with God and come back and tell us what to do and how to do it (like Moses). Christ has shown me that now I have direct access to God, my Father, through Him. Camp is a good thing in that it places me with others who believe as I do (somewhat) and also affords protection. But if I truly want to talk with God, I must go outside the walls, outside the camp, alone, without adornment, and only then will He speak to me as one speaks to a friend. And, with Christ, He speaks to me as a son - for that I am.

Methinks, Blackthorn, that you have decided to step outside the camp and go into the tabernacle to meet God one-on-one. It is a most enlightening and wonderful experience which will follow. Christ Jesus has made this possible. Peace.

This is interesting Rev. While reading your words I found myself thinking of Jesus in the wilderness. Satan tried his best to tempt Him and failed. Jesus defense was the word of God as recorded in the OT. It also reminded me of something I heard John Hagee say last night, if another gospel deviates from the gospels wer have withing the NT, then they are false gaspels. Not trying to pick on anyones views here but we must understand that the word of God is our sheild against the word of man. Just figured I would share what you reminded me of, didnt mean to hijack the thread.

Thorn you have a good head on your shoulders and I believe you have strong faith, I just pray that the Lord will protect and guide you from any bad influences no matter where they come from. You are at a fragile point right now and the only one who can sustain you is our heavenly Father.

[Bro. Hex]

It also reminded me of something I heard John Hagee say last night, if another gospel deviates from the gospels (we) have (within) the NT, then they are false (gospels). Not trying to pick on anyone's views here but we must understand that the word of God is our (shield) against the word of man.

Of course it could also be the case that John Hagee is just plain "wrong".

If "another gospel" deviates (whatever that means*) it could simply mean that the gospels that we have within the NT are the ones that are in error (or incomplete). Not trying to pick on anyone's views here but we must understand that the bible IS only the words of men... inspired perhaps, but a very human document, none-the-less.

* it is such an indefinite thing to say "deviates"...what does that mean anyway? If another gospel "says more" (or less) than what is in the NT...is that "deviating"? Or is deviating (as used above) really referring to "contradictions"?

If the former definition is what Mr. Hagee was implying, then he is on pretty shaky ground, as everything and anything ever said by any Saint...if it wasn't "quoting the gospels", would be judged as "deviating". This turns "deviation" into a pretty meaningless concept, and renders "The Lives of the Saints" as pretty much irrelevant. I don't know about you, but I am "not okay" with seeing the lives of the Saints in that light.

Edited October 31, 2008 by Hexalpa

[RobinD69]

Of course it could also be the case that John Hagee is just plain "wrong".

If "another gospel" deviates (whatever that means*) it could simply mean that the gospels that we have within the NT are the ones that are in error. Not trying to pick on anyone's views here but we must understand that the bible is only the word of men... inspired perhaps, but a very human document.

* it is such an indefinite thing to say "deviates"...what does that mean anyway? If "another gospel "says more" (or less) than what is in the NT...is that "deviating"? Or is deviating (as used above) really referring to "contradictions"?

If the former definition is what Mr. Hagee was implying, then he is on pretty shaky ground, as everything and anything ever said by any Saint...if it wasn't "quoting the gospels", should be judged as "deviating". This turns "deviation" into a pretty meaningless concept, and renders "The Lives of the Saints" as pretty much irrelevant.

The lives of those declared saints by men are pretty much irrelevant since only God makes saints. In order to be a saint you merely have to be a believer.

As for your little word play you are trying, why dont we just look at the verses in question, this from the NASB;

But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed. Gal. 1:8. But I would recommend reading the whole chapter to get a better idea of what is beiong said here. You might also want to take a look at 2 Cor. 11:4, and again I recommend the whole chapter. And another connection would be 1 Cor. 3:11, and again you might want to read the chapter. Then perhaps you will have a better perspective of what Rev. Hagee said.

[Fawzo]

The lives of those declared saints by men are pretty much irrelevant since only God makes saints. In order to be a saint you merely have to be a believer.

As for your little word play you are trying, why dont we just look at the verses in question, this from the NASB;

But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed. Gal. 1:8. But I would recommend reading the whole chapter to get a better idea of what is beiong said here. You might also want to take a look at 2 Cor. 11:4, and again I recommend the whole chapter. And another connection would be 1 Cor. 3:11, and again you might want to read the chapter. Then perhaps you will have a better perspective of what Rev. Hagee said.

So then James the Just and the Judean bunch were "accursed" in your eyes because they deviated from what Paul and John taught. The one man who Yeshua said to go to in case of a debate is accursed because John taught circumcision and that following Mosaic Law were necessary?

[RobinD69]

So then James the Just and the Judean bunch were "accursed" in your eyes because they deviated from what Paul and John taught. The one man who Yeshua said to go to in case of a debate is accursed because John taught circumcision and that following Mosaic Law were necessary?

No, you are misunderstanding me and the scriptures. They all taught the same gospel message, cicumcision has nothing to do with that message and neither does the Mosaic Law. Again one must address all the related scriptures to find the core message.

[Bro. Hex]

As for your little word play you are trying, why dont we just look at the verses in question, this from the NASB;

??? There WERE no "verses" in question.

You had not cited any specific verses, and neither had I.

So you decide to introduce verses NOW???

And what non-NT gospel are you comparing these to, pray tell ??

[Cornelius]

And so it begins

[Fawzo]

And so it begins

All roads lead to Rome, don't they?

[mark 45]

wow vic,i'm not real sure where to begin.

please don't take this wrong,but when you first came to the board i saw a smart aleck satanist.and yet,when i read your posts,i learned.more than you will ever know.

later,i see you had"joined"bro devon.that came as a suprise in some ways,but from what you had written,it shouldn't have.

i guess what i'm trying to say in to many words is that you have a very inquiring mind.never lose that or your vision of your goals,no matter where they take you.and remember that like a boat that you have used to cross the river,titles cease to be useful once we have achived what we need to.

take care and all the best on your journey.

[kokigami]

And so it begins

woot.. forgot that you were once Vic, vic. I'm thinking that last transformation was - what, 5 years back? Now, I gotta ask, were you really just deep under cover..

Really, I thought it was a good post. And lots of good follow up. Wish you well. Course Agnostic is the only true path..

The dude abides...

[RobinD69]

??? There WERE no "verses" in question.

You had not cited any specific verses, and neither had I.

So you decide to introduce verses NOW???

And what non-NT gospel are you comparing these to, pray tell ??

I was merely refering to your assertment of some apostles being accursed for certain things they had to say or disagreements they had. I am strictly speaking of the events you presented without specific verses in mind but alluded to.

And so it begins

I am sorry Vic, I do not intend to debate in your thread, just seeking mutual understanding.

[Cornelius]

wow vic,i'm not real sure where to begin.

please don't take this wrong,but when you first came to the board i saw a smart aleck satanist.and yet,when i read your posts,i learned.more than you will ever know.

later,i see you had"joined"bro devon.that came as a suprise in some ways,but from what you had written,it shouldn't have.

i guess what i'm trying to say in to many words is that you have a very inquiring mind.never lose that or your vision of your goals,no matter where they take you.and remember that like a boat that you have used to cross the river,titles cease to be useful once we have achived what we need to.

take care and all the best on your journey.

Thank you for the extremely kind words and advice mark. I always make sure to read your posts and miss you when your not here for awhile.

That is one of my favorite Buddha teachings and I know from the past it is one of yours as well.

The greatest teaching of the buddha imo and perhaps my favorite is this.

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. ~Buddha

[Cornelius]

woot.. forgot that you were once Vic, vic.

I almost forget my old apellation sometimes myself koki. Sometimes the need to change a name or title arises.

I also forgot that some people took a play on words as my actual name lol. Viq Sin or Viqtor Sin as I used to be known if you put it together and say it phonetically you get vixen. Not many people ever figured that out. In case anyone is wondering my name is Robert

I'm thinking that last transformation was - what, 5 years back? Now, I gotta ask, were you really just deep under cover..

Yes it has been quite awhile now and I'll never tell.

Really, I thought it was a good post. And lots of good follow up. Wish you well.

Thanks koki.

Course Agnostic is the only true path.

Nah they are just the people who look down the path, shrug, and then stay where they are

The dude abides...

That he does

I am sorry Vic, I do not intend to debate in your thread, just seeking mutual understanding.

No need to apologize if you haven't done anything wrong. All threads eventually die or change direction at one point.

Edited November 3, 2008 by Blackthorn

[Qryos]

~ Humph... { Hey Darlin', you're being playful... I gotta! }

Course Agnostic is the only true path.

Nah they are just the people who look down the path, shrug, and then stay where they are

... As I said, "Humph... "

Hey, I don't know. I vary moment by moment, at times very much believing in 'something' & the next confused by myself

All I think I may know is that what probably IS is beyond what we can easily understand or explain with our limited vocabulary.

Is that Agnostic? Or in Awe? Or admitting I'm only human & really can't comprehend the totality of what is All...

Well, perhaps we find out at death. That would be nifty, huh?

[Cornelius]

~ Humph... { Hey Darlin', you're being playful... I gotta! }

... As I said, "Humph... "

Hey, I don't know. I vary moment by moment, at times very much believing in 'something' & the next confused by myself

All I think I may know is that what probably IS is beyond what we can easily understand or explain with our limited vocabulary.

Is that Agnostic? Or in Awe? Or admitting I'm only human & really can't comprehend the totality of what is All...

Well, perhaps we find out at death. That would be nifty, huh?

I believe that is a very good description of an agnostic Q. Very well put.

I'm glad you got the joke though

Edited November 3, 2008 by Blackthorn

[Qryos]

~ You've always been a gentle & kind person with a fine sense of humour!

Whatever you wish to call youself & whatever path you take, you really can't change your inner self

[revjohn59]

AMEN Brother Blackthorn,

May the path on your journy be soft on your feet, and may all the tree's you encuonter bear you fruit for both your nurishment and enlightment and shade to comfort you while you rest.