Pete

I use shortwave radio a lot. There is many denominations out there preaching on air without a challenge and the listeners cannot ask questions. It gives the image that they know what they are talking about from Brother Stair to the Pope. Yet, how many would stand up if they could be challenged on air. Not many I would suspect.

Yes I was brought up with that. It made life very difficult. I would not wish it on anyone. Bl..dy Billy Graham has a lot to answer for. Self righteous dick. We grew up in fear. It gave strong will and self discipline but an emotional cripple for years. Thank God for inventing beer. Don't touch it now but back then I could not get enough.

Teaching about Genesis and the ark is not about atheism. I wonder if they have a room beside the ark room for when you want split your sides laughing at the exhibition.

It has to be said Norway's prison service is unusual even in Europe. They had a scheme in the UK for young offenders in which they would go camping, rock climbing, hiking, and boating. It had a 90% success rate as they did not reaffend. Then a right wing national newspaper go hold of it and complained that they.were being rewarded for crime. The scheme got closed and the success rate dropped to below 20%. Totally stupid.

The thing about prisons is that they are grubby places with no privacy. They force lots of people of temperament in a small place. You have nothing not owned by the prison and no right to make any decisions for yourself. You cannot even turn a light on without some guard turning it on for you. You cannot walk anywhere outside your area unless given permission to.You are stripped of everything that gives you a personal identity. Even relatives have to ask permission to visit and then for only short periods. They are scary places full of conflict and every one irritating each other. Bullying is rife and there is always the potential for violence over the most petty of conflict. There is no privacy when washing or using the loo. If you visit one you get the feeling of claustrophobia. They are not nice places.

Yet, they know every day will be the same as the next with no change for years and their life is ticking by. Even when the sentence is over there is no immediate release. When we used to rehabilitate it was said it was a privilege and not a right and if you hack up then you go back. Even when they are out then it is on license in the UK. That means any infringement with the law and your back inside. It is a life of mediocrity rather than luxury. I have seen petty conflict over the most stupid of things. It kills the boredom.

I have thought long and hard on this. Having seen people go through the rehabilitation process and knowing what a horrible world it is for some people I would not want to see the death penalty for mine or my families killing. Hell it would hurt, but I still would not want it. I believe prison does work and for some its the only consistent family they have ever known. Although I believe in the eventual rehabilitation even I recognise that there are some who will always be a danger to the public or permanently disturbed and for them life in prison is the only solution.I don't believe killing for killing solves anything. If it was the US, China, and Russia would be the most safest in respect to murder in the world but they are not. China kills so often and for petty crimes but it still has criminals and murders.

Welcome to the forum Louisllofr

I have heard some poor countries have the death sentence because they cannot afford the prisons, but we are talking the US and UK here. The death sentence is not needed. I personally am against killing for killing because given the wrong circumstances everyone is capable of killing. I have not done because I have not met those circumstances and I am glad of that. I also don't like the idea of killing innocent people and those rehabatable back into society. That to me is not justice. Prisons are there to safe guard the public, prevent further crime, punish and rehabilitate. The death sentence is for me no less guilty in society than the murder. They are just killing out of malice and convenience and is just as bad a deed as murder. (Imo)

I know this is the monotheist section and Dan can speak about his faith here but a problem I get is qoutes like archeology does support the bible. The fact that a place may of existed does not prove anything happened there. Secondly there are loads of fundamental so called archeologists roaming Isreal and claiming all sorts. It's like they find a foot print in the sand and declare it as proof Jesus walked there. It is not scientific research. It's just trying to support their own beliefs. That to me is not archeology and it's just fantasy. Another qoute is history does not contradict the bible. History cannot even prove Jesus existed so let's not say history supports the bible. It doesn't. Then there is the justification of every heinous deed in the bible as being God's indignation against sin. For me no God who supports torture, slavery, stoning and burning people is worthy of worship. That may of convinced ancient man but it has no place in modern society.

I think there is something sad about a person who feels deviance from his beliefs deserves eternal punishment or hell or death. Then to have no feelings for them is somewhat psychopathic. If I believed as he does I would need to pray for all whether they believed or not. This world ain't easy and it is no surprises to me that some lose their compassion and humanity. One such person who committed murder had been brought up in isolation and prevented socialization with anyone but his parents who locked him a cupboard and his father used a rubber hose on him regularly and mother used to use a hot poker to burn him and he had burns all over his body. I guess as he killed twice Dan would of had him executed without a thought of mercy. I could not help but feel for him. It's a sh1t world for many people and they did not get the chances we have had or either that nature had been cruel to them in their development.. I have no regrets at trying to help them.

There a lot who define themselves as religious such as Bhuddists, Quakers UK, and Unitarians and have atheist and agnostic members. Freedom of thought is important but I also believe that politics should be secular so as to ensure that freedom of thought. No one religion can be trusted and especially if its fundamental.

Me neither. Maybe it will just mean fundamentalists will just be ignored in the future. I do hope so.

Oh! I do hope so. The idea of treating people as you want to be treated does not have to belong to religion and I think of the number of wars created by religion or supported by religion and I do hope that people will respond to science and logic rather than centuries old dogma. Compassion has a survival function as well as a humanistic function. We need to move forward with what matters in this life rather the unprovable possibilities in another, I see the campaign against climate change as one of those developments whilst some religious nutters I hear are trying to destroy the planet in hope it brings Jesus back sooner, Sheer madness, I hope for better things.

I have debated often with Dan and even if its the most foul deed possible like killing none virgin wifes in his book he will justify it as righteous. I just hope he is never in a position of authority as. I pity those under him. A bit like the nurse in one flew over the cuckoo's nest mentality. Don't expect compassion if it conflicts with his interpretation of his book.

Dan yes your missing the point. Preventing someone from further killing is self defence. When a person is no longer killing and then to rehabilitate after their sentence is a positive thing to do. You cannot equate the two. To kill when a person is no longer a risk is for me murder.

The ones I worked on rehabilitation had done 15yrs in prison before they came to us. The discipline was strict but after 4 yrs rehab they then returned to the community. Most with a job and a flat. The rule was don't break the law in any way unless you want to back to prison for another 15yrs. I would not call it showering with kindness. More like giving a second chance in life. As I said many had known huge poverty and abuse. Why not just kill them? Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those trespass against us. Remember that line.

We can be moral without religion because science gives us understanding on which we can make moral judgements whilst religion only gives viewpoints of cultures in history and in their understanding. This is often illogical and immoral in today's understandings.

It was done so because this is a monotheist section and I am discussing it from their perspective. This is by an large a Christian section. For me morals are not from a book of dodgy quotes with a questionable source but for people here it is. So I used their language against them. I agree the arguments have grown silly and the game is one of dodge the question rather than hold to a logical thread of a debate. Hence, I take Jonathan's advice and go back where I am comfortable with the logic of science and constructive thought. See you there friend.

Yes, as it pointless.

None of that made any contribution to the debate and was one of your famous smoke screens. You were the one quoting the OT law to back up your belief in the death penalty. That is the only reason I mentioned it. If Jesus said love your enemies and do unto others what you want them to do unto you. How do you equate that with to support the death penalty. I did at one time nurse people who had committed murder. None of them would I recommend the death penalty. Many took to their rehabilitation and are now living costructively in the community again. I call that a job well done. It allowed for people to turn their lives around and turn away from the old days. Many were the product of poverty and abuse. I thought Christians would get that and support it rather than wanting revenge.

The law includes taking slaves and permission to beat them, stoning gay people; killing disrespectful children, killing everyone in neighbouring towns who have someone preaching another religion,, stoning none virgin brides, burning wayward daughters of priests ect. If the law was followed then we would all be on death row. Jesus even went further as you say even if you think about killing someone you are guilty of murder. I am so glad we do not follow the biblical law. Most Christians seem to cherry pick which laws they like and quote and pretend the rest don't exist.