Pete

We have JW's in my family. When they say that people do not like them they always quote John 15:18 rather than look at any other reasons people may find it difficult to get along with them. John 15:18 - “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you." They often say that they are on the right path because Jesus said the world would hate them. I usually reply that according to that logic Adolf Hitler must be more on that path as he was hated more than them. It was usually met with silence or a tut!

A point I understand well my friend. However, try convincing fanatics that harm God is being blamed for is God doing evil. It gets into a very circular argument where they only see God as just no matter how obnoxious (IMO) the deed.

I guess you have a point Youch. Fred Phelps?

The first time I ever heard from Westboro was when I came across a forum that was set up for its members. The topic of the conversation was about not giving any sympathy or respect to those who are ill. They were saying that if they were ill then it was God's judgement and therefore they deserved to be ill and people should let them suffer. They talked about how disgusted they were that people cared for disabled people and how they should be left to suffer. Being a Nurse who has seen much suffering and also someone with a physical handicap I guess I could not believe what I was reading. Then when I read about the actions they were taking at funerals I just felt that they were a noxious group of people. Sure given the amount of child abuse that has occurred in some churches I would not say they were the worst in the world but the difference was for me is that this church 100% endorsed the actions they were taking.

I agree. There are many things this man did that I disagree with. He showed what can happen when our ministers are never able to be questioned. He perpetrated acts of cruelty on the relatives of soldiers and gay people at the time of their funerals. He used the freedom a speech which was given him by those who fought for his freedom which he said he hated. He lied and lied again about what was happening to people should they not listen to him. He fostered bigotry against gay and lesbian people. He hated the US and many countries around the world. I do not care what people have to say about the US but they have also to acknowledge that without the US many countries around the world would either not exist and be under dictatorships and I count the UK as one of those countries. I honour our troops but also in the same breath the soldiers of the US because I know without them it is unlikely I would have freedom of speech and be possibly part of Hitler's or Stalin's empire. Fred Phelps never recognised just how lucky he was to be born in the US as many other countries would just have exterminated their church for some of the things he has said. Like also as RevJackP has said I have seen the patriot Guard Riders on youtube and I salute them.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7898972.stm http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/4696132/US-Church-which-calls-for-homosexuals-to-be-killed-banned-from-UK.html Yes, Fred Phelps warned that supporters over here would become angry at their ban but nothing happened and there has never been a picket in their favour in the UK. They can believe what they will but I am free to believe what I will and picketing gay and soldiers funerals and not showing any compassion for the grieving families is for me an evil. They are just religious psychopaths (IMO) who cannot feel the pain of others and indeed celebrate in their suffering. Which is something I cannot ever support them in.

I never said do not challenge them. I just felt the sorry for your loss was a powerful approach. I personally do not mind if people see me as someone who does not like Westboro or their message. They are banned from coming to the UK and I am not sorry for that.

I know he upset a lot of people and I cannot say I liked the Westboro message, but I think the sorry for your loss picket would have the impact of making people think of Westboro's posture as inferior (imo). Pink funerals at Westboro just seem to give Westboro what I think they get off on and that is conflict to give themselves the feeling that they are fighting a moral war for God. I think they enjoy the conflict and upsetting people. Weird though that is (imo)

I see Westboro continues their message of hate on their site. Addressing one of their quotes from the site about the world needs to hear the message of homophobia more than oxygen, water and bread is for me just plain stupid (IMO). I can imagine a member gasping for breath or starving and I just go over and give them a message on homophobia. I am sure they would not thank me. I guess one of the reasons the God hates message never took off in the UK is a f-a-g is a cigarette over here and some gay and lesbian (but not all) would probably hate them too..

I hear Fred Phelps the minister from Westboro has died. The minister who cruelly picked many Soldiers and Gay people's funerals. I have to say my respect to the first picket of his funeral. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/god-hates-**-westboro-baptist-churchs-first-protest-since-death-of-founder-fred-phelps-marked-by-perfect-counterdemonstration-9210773.html I wonder if Westboro will learn from this but then again I some how doubt it.

I like the Gospel of Mary and the Gospel of Thomas,

Any one one want water. We seem to have loads in the UK this year. Huge areas are flooded and there seems no end to it at present. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/02/12/uk-weather-one-dead-as-100mph-winds-lash-britain_n_4776351.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cuk%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D242932 If you want water then just contact the UK government and arrange to collect the stuff. We will be pleased for you to take it.

I agree that people label people. Some people like to be labelled too. I guess, no one is 100% a label and nothing else. When one can only see one aspect of a person and nothing else then I think one has judged them because they are not prepared to see anything else about the person. Sometimes it's a bit like asking how many differing types of Christianity exist. The answer I give is well it depends upon how many Christians there are as each one is different in some way. Other times its a question of survival. I may realise that there are many differing natzies around but I think it wise to stay clear of all of them.

You are were heart is my friend. blwydden newydd dda

True I think one does not have to accept the definition another applies to their faith but I believe one needs to have respect for the reason that they use the term as much as the reason you use the term. It is easy to pick fault in another who is different from your own basically because they are different from your own and your using your own yardstick to measure them by. Just as easy as you can say a person is not a Christian because they do not believe in an inerrant bible it is easy to reverse that process in the eyes of another. An inerrant bible believer could also be called a biblicist because they place the words of the author above the overall moral lessons of the bible. They could be called a follower of Paulianity because they place the words of Paul often above the words of Jesus. They could be called and idolator because they place the words written by man to the status of the divine words of God. It could go on but I think you can get the message. I am not trying to call you names here but in the eyes of another we can all be seen differently and dismissing someone's faith because it differs from ones own can often overlook the strength of faith they have which may even be stronger than ones own if they were able to be measured. I therefore let God be the measurer rather than that of the viewpoint of another. Hence, even though we differ in our Christianity I have not called you not a Christian..

I like that. Thanks Kingfisher.

I seem to get this often. I am told I am not a Christian because I do not follow the path the same way as others. Always find this insulting, arrogant, controlling and disrespectful. It seems to dismiss the faith that I have as having no consequence because it does not follow to the letter that view of others. I do believe that people should not dictate the faith of others, but I also think there are times when I think one should. For example, I am happy for Westboro to worship as they feel but I do feel they should not be picking funerals of Soldiers or others who have differing view to themselves. I also would feel I would need to intervene if I discovered a suicide cult or there was child abuse going on. Most times when someone tells me that they have a differing faith I wonder what I can learn from them but pull away when I am expected to follow their lead because they feel I should.

Do not be so hard on yourself. We have all been there and done things we really regret but I am sure that is not everything about you or me. We can only do our best and learn from our mistakes. Change if you want but remember perfection cannot be achieved. So be gentle with yourself my friend. You have gained a lot of respect from people like me.

Nelson Mandela you touched the heart of millions. My prayers and blessings go with you. Thank you for the blessing you gave us from your life. You will not be forgotten.

I believe there is a thing called mental illness but I also believe that should not be seen as the sum total of a person. Unlike many lay people who would described someone with odd beliefs as mad, that is not how professionals see things. The question is, is that belief harmful to a person in the manner of preventing them functioning in their lives. There is little that in the characteristics of someone who has a mental illness to that of a sane person. Yet, when those Characteristics are to a degree it takes over the person's life then there is an issue. For example:- We all get fed up sometimes but when that depressions last months and years and incapacitates a person from having the ability to live their lives then there is problem. We all get anxious at times but when that feeling of anxiety seems to have no cause for the person and it is ever present that the person fears all the time, many being scared to even get out of bed every day then there is a problem. The voices that many suffer in schizophrenia are not always a problem in themselves but when you hear someone shouting vulgarities and threats all the time and telling a person that if they do not do something like kill themselves or a catastrophe will occur and thousands will die or that there is some terrible plot to kill them going on, then you can imagine how distracting this can be to the function of a person and especially so if you cannot tell whether these voices or ideas are real or not. Mental illness is real suffering and a real group of illnesses, but the trouble is that when some lay people get hold of the terms then they have a tendency to use them as an insult to another and that undermines those who are really suffering. It is no good telling a depression sufferer to shake out of it. If they could then they would and many try really hard to escape such feelings that linger on day after day without ceasing, even some take their lives. It is no joke. The problem as I see it is that many can see the concept of a person suffering a physical illness but they do not take on board the mind is also part of the body and can get ill too and are less sympathetic to people who suffer such illnesses. This in turn prevents many from seeking help because they fear what others may think of them if they did. There is vast gulf between how professionals see mental illness and medical terms and the way some lay people see things.

One thing I recommend to people is that looking after one's self is not selfish. If you do not look after one's self then one cannot then be a strong support for others. I do not believe anyone can get through life without getting a few knocks on the way. Yet, sometimes these are really hard to deal with such as your ex-Vietnam veterans and trauma comment. Being tormented by one's worst nightmares on a daily basis is not an easy thing for anyone. I see a lot in the comment that says "Religion is for those who do not want to go to hell and spirituality is there for those who have already been to hell. I personally do not believe in hell as a place in the afterlife but I do see some people who have had more than a taste of it in this life. I would not therefore say that these are selfish people because they look after themselves first. Sometimes people have to look after themselves. I have met some people who are caring night and day for suffers of dementia in the family and feel guilty that they are struggling to cope and then ask for help. My advice is to be easy on oneself and take what help there is because if a person does not then in the long term they will fail and then there will be two people to look after. Sometimes when people are suffering it is hard to think of others but I believe that is because they are focusing their energies on healing. That to me it is not selfish but an important thing to do.

I know this is a difficult thing emotionally but my advice is your not there to play family therapist. You're there to support a dying man and his dying wishes. If they want to talk about things such as is there anyway a reconciliation that can take place then okay but otherwise I would do as they ask. Hard that it may seem, people make choices in life and we are not there to make them for them. If you're seen to interfere against the patients wishes then you could end up having them ask you to go and they will then lose one more person of support and feel that must more alone. Build the relationship between you and them for support and you being able to be there for them, but in the end honour their wishes (IMO). I know in hospital if a patient said I do not want see someone we have to honour that as health professionals.

This is also one of the problems with the UK . In the states the Town Hall holds the records. Therefore ministers can be recognised easier as they are not required to store the records. In the UK a recognise registra holds the records within a building like a church and it must be available for the public to view. A UK minister is not automatically a recognised registra. Being as we in the UK have to have property and become a registra we are hit with a double whammy with regard to being recognised as ULC ministers and carrying out marriages. This said there is nothing to stop a person after the legal aspects are done elsewhere from doing a blessing ceremony on the marriage but this would not be a legal requirement or have in its self legal standing. The question is does anyone ask for this? As for recognising one as a minister I would say the EU Human rights covers thse in Holland as much as it does us in the UK:- Article 9: Freedom of thought, conscience and religion 1. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching practice and observance. 2. Freedom to manifest one’s religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others. This right has a special significance under the Human Rights Act. Section 13 of the Act requires courts or tribunals, when they are hearing cases which may impact on the exercise of this right by a religious organisation, to have ‘particular regard to the importance of that right’. Article 10: Freedom of expression 1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without inference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This Article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises. 2. The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary. http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/human-rights/what-are-human-rights/the-human-rights-act/

Got an email to day. It seems its someone called Ivan who wants to start a forum in Belgium. He said he asked Brother Kevin if he could use the ULCin the UK forum logo and thought it was okay. Ivan's email sounds as far as I can tell legit. If people know anything otherwise that suggests I should not, then I think we will grant him permission. He insists he is loyal to Modesto and I am all for ULC expansion. Do not feel so bad about it now.

Thanks Seeker