Pete

Thanks Frank. I did not put it on line. I got a lot of support from Gateful and Qryos and that meant a lot to me. Dad died last year and Mum this year. Mum and Dad's death were long drawn out and cruelly painful and it unsettled me. Grateful and Qryos were a great help at that time. I know we never really say goodbye to those we love and I feel Mum and Dad often around me and I am sure I always will. Grateful I love the pictures. They are wonderful. Could you email them to me? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I do not know how to say this, but I know everyone on the forum are there for me but I am still finding it hard to talk about what happened. I am sure you understand because your very wonderful people. I just ask for now to not continue on this topic. I am finding it is hard for me. Please forgive me.

I would like that thanks Grateful. I will try to see it on google maps. I know this is not the best way but it may give me an idea of the surroundings. I can imagine I am there too. As for the club, I agree its not one I liked much and I am sure you do not either. I thank you again for being there for me. It was greatly appreciated. I found this. It looks a lovely place to be. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Diablo

One thing I have learned is not to allow others to define my Christianity for me. I guess this is true for Paganism to or there would not be Neo-Pagans. I recommend that you find your own path and take no heed as to what others define you as. You know in your heart what is what. One of the reasons I describe myself as a liberal Christian is so no one gets to confuse me with the religous right or conservatism. Raincloud said " I don't think my left wing politics, belief in social liberty and small government is somehow evil, because it's the opposite of what these Christians believe. I can only conclude that my belief in liberty is a good thing, and an actual God would approve. This is why I am no longer strictly Christian". I would say those beliefs define me as a Christian but what labels one uses is fine with me. In the end its the heart that counts (IMO).

How is the mountain now Grateful? I wish I could see it too. Some places are hallowed and I am sure this is one of them.

Thanks Hex. One thing I am have grown to appreciate is the wonderful people in the ULC.

Thanks Grateful and Frank. I just spotted this. Mum died about three months back. Her ill health just became to much and she had to many medical conditions hit all at once. If she had lived then things would have got a lot worse and she was already in a lot of pain. I am sure Mum's spirit got you blessings Thanks my friends for all your love and well wishes and Grateful and Qryros for giving me time when things were going through such tough times for me and Mum and Dad last year. Your all wonderful people.

I guess (and others may have a differing opinion) that what matters is what denomination you personally are. I have been very conservative to very liberal in my faith, but the ULC has still been there for me. Whats this about a Cost and a Bill ? The ULC has never charged me a penny but I have got so much from the organisation and its varied and wonderful members.

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet" - Shakespear

I agree Von. Ministering is not all about doing marriages. I guess my frustration is that I want to see the ULC take off in the UK as it has in the US. I want to see ministry available to all faiths and a place where all can call home in the UK without having to be directed by the dictates of those who are already established in their own church organisations and supported by the state. In short I would love to see a branch office of the church of Modesto in the UK. The Quakers get around much of this legislation without ministers by keeping all their records in the Quaker HQ in London. So although marriages are carried out locally without a minister (being signed by all the attending congregation instead) they are recognized in law. I hope and dream that one day this will happen for us. I just wish it was sooner rather than later. I also wish it for all faiths and viewpoints and not just my own. I do not believe we have religious freedom until something like this happens. For me real religious freedom is only brought into being by an organisation that recognizes all faiths and viewpoints and I do not see another organisation that can even competes with the ULC on this.

<p>Its a differing issue with the UK as our laws are different to that of the US. In the UK you have the choice of a Registry civil marriage which is not allowed to have any religious aspect to it by law or you have a religious marriage carried out by a church recognized as registry of marriages. The later part of that is achieved by being accepted as a registrar and also being able to house records somewhere for public viewing. So without owning secure property it is unlikely one is going to get recognized as a registrar. Must UK ministers do not have the money for property and those who have a venue for services do so by renting property but this again would not fulfill the records storing requirements. </p> <p>I know we can still bless any marriage after a legal marriage has been carried out at a recognized venue like a registry office but on its own a ULC blessing would have no legal standing.</p> <p>Another issue is many none ULC UK ministers of religion do have academic degrees and therefore the issue of where was one trained is often asked and the quality of a minister is likely to be judge by one's answer. Although I have respect for ULC qualifications I am often met with the suggestion that my qualifications are just "Mickey mouse degrees (otherwise meaning not real qualifications or just paper mill) " and the fact that I cannot carry out a legal wedding lends support for the opinion of some. This often has a bearing on the UK forum too as people join but in seeing little advancement of our qualifications and recognition in the UK then do not return. It is then hard to get things together. We need credibility and I would give my hind teeth for the UK to follow (IMO) the enlightened way the US does with regard to religion and marriage. The other issue here is that church and state are not separate and the Queen is also the head of the church of England in the UK. This makes applying for jobs like Hospital Chaplin difficult as ministers of large churches like the CofE and the RC and some protestant churches (but not all) are likely to be employed in preference to someone of an unknown quality like a ULC minister.</p> <p>So in my opinion in UK terms the enemy of religious freedom and the ULC getting established is the UK government.</p> <p>Now as Von and AV has described one can get personal credibility on ones personal standing by being a service to others but on legal terms and recognition not much gets moved in the recognition of the ULC as whole in the UK. Some have hoped to get recognition by promoting themselves as ministers of established faiths like Christianity but this does open the way for having a multi faith church like that at Modesto.</p> <p>In my view religious freedom does not exist in the UK unless one is rich enough to buy that credibility.So any millionaires out there who want to establish the ULC in the UK and strike one up for religious freedom of all faiths then please get in touch with Modesto and tell them you want to build in the UK and establish a UK ULC presence like that of the US and perhaps things may change. Failing that then its a matter of getting a large number of people to tell the UK government that people want a change in the present arrangement. That is also not proving easy.</p>

I still struggle with this. Super group, Umbrella organisation, multi faith, Inter faith, I can relate to. Denomination I am still not sure about. However, I can live that uncertainty. Thanks Panpareil.

I just want to understand how the ULC could be seen as a religious denomination having many traditions and no common faith. "A religious denomination is a subgroup within a religion that operates under a common name, tradition, and identity." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_denomination 1. A large group of religious congregations united under a common faith and name and organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy. 2. One of a series of kinds, values, or sizes, as in a system of currency or weights: Cash registers have compartments for bills of different denominations. The stamps come in 25¢ and 45¢ denominations. 3. A name or designation, especially for a class or group. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/denomination All I am saying is I just do not understand how one can make such a claim.

Agreed Hex. Amy (IMO) has integrity and would not try to deceive anyone. The seminary also do some great courses. Of the ULC sites I go to, there is the ULC.net, the ULCHQ, The ULC seminary, The ULC tribal, and the ULC in the UK forums. I am just not interested in getting involved with others organisations like the monastery.

It maybe that I personally would have little issue being told I am a member of a UU type church but those among us of a more conservative outlook may not see it that way as they would not support UU views on things and yet they are members with the same status as me. I therefore still cannot see how we are all a denomination of a single religion unless that religion is being human.

I am not sure Hex. I still do not think we are a denomination as some of our members have no religion and they still have equal status to the rest of us. I thought of the religion of "Universal Life" but then some who have certain religions would not agree that others are of the same religion as them unless they sign up to their beliefs.

Denominations usually have a common belief. The ULC opens its doors to all beliefs and does not stipulate a creed. It leaves that up to each individual. So I would go with the ULC is a Universal Church and not a denomination but some of its members may also be members of other differing denominations of their choosing. PS/ Welcome to the forum Sean4554

Agreed.

(IMO)

Box top? cheek! It is just that they cannot stand the fact there may be free thinkers out there they cannot control. I am proud of my ULC ordination.

I agree. In my work I do see some people who do terrible things whilst having a psychotic episode but I also see others who just want to escape a jail sentence. I also note the courts are very good in telling the difference and psychiatric reports are usually very honest. However, in this case I do not believe they acted alone and there have been other attacks around the country and so I am with you in that I doubt this has anything to illness. I just hope they are caught because a person who could do this and live with it could do so many other things and therefore they need locking up fast.

I spoke of sick in the sense of revulsion rather than declaring these persons as ill. They maybe but I just do not know that.

Please be warned that this post has some horrible descriptions of cruelty in it. I think I can understand Dan's point though. It is one thing to kill an animal quickly and painless, say for your meal, but as in this case chopping off its ear, cutting out the eyes and also mutilating its private parts, cutting out its tongue and putting this animal through a long sustained torture till death, is plain sick and the culprits need to be dealt with very severely by the law. One can also understand why some want to turn vigilante. The trouble is I believe they are portioning the blame where is does not belong. Witches and Satanist would never do such a thing. This is the work of psychopaths as anyone else would find this story hard emotionally to read let alone carry out such an evil action.

100% with you AV. Amen my friend.

I think that is the problem. It is a sick and painful to read story and I cannot for the life of me understand how someone can do such a thing. The problem is the story can easily and understandably bring angry responses in people and I worry that the wrong people are going to get blamed for this. Thus making this tragic and sickening story even worse (if that can be said). I have looked at other cases and they range in many parts of England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland. I also read that there have been a few incidents like this in the US. I fear the ill informed person hurt by these stories are going to go looking for a culprit and in their ignorance pick on the wrong victims as the press appears to have done. It is scary that there are people who could actually do this to any living creature but it is also scary (IMO) to think where this can lead given that witches are wrongly being blamed by the (IMO) ignorant press.

Hi folks, I am worried about something that is happening in the UK. There has been a number of horses which have been ritually attacked in places throughout the UK over the recent decades. It usually occurs at a full moon and near to pagan and Wicca celebration dates. The problem is the press and others are being quoted in saying that this is the work of Witches. I know that witches would never do such a thing as it is beyond their beliefs to harm anything but I feel that unless people point out to others being fed by the press, there maybe a backlash directed at Wiccans for something I do not believe they have anything to do with. (I warn you this report is not pleasant to read) :- http://travel.aol.co.uk/2013/07/26/pony-killed-satanic-ritual-devon-national-park/ I am not a Witch or a Wiccan but I believe in my friends who are and wonder if people could use their persuasive influence to point out to those who say they plan to attack witches that they are mistaken. Wiccans believe that what harm you do to others will come back three fold to themselves. Wiccans do not believe the christian figure of Satan exists let alone worship Satan. Wiccans do not sacrifice any living creature and certainly will be appalled by this report as I am. The trouble is (IMO) there are many who do not bother to learn what others believe and seem too quick to give them the blame for something that has nothing to do with them.