Pete

Croeso Gruffudd.

AV I understand the confusion but if you read post 1 of the topic it will become clear.

Dan we have a different idea of righteousness. No where does it say anything about castration and burning a daughter is hardly just (imo). I think your deliberately ignoring the viciousness of it. It is not the actions of a civilised person and hardly fitting of a just God. No wonder people come to the conclusion that the God of the OT is different from the NT (imo).

And what a law it was and the bible says it was God given. If I believed this then I would be worried about the morals of God.:- Deuteronomy 25:11 "When men strive together one with another, and the wife of one drawth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taken him by the secrets: 12 Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her. KJV Leviticus 21:9 "And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire. " KJV Deuteronomy 17:12 "And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel." KJV Chronicles 15:12-13 " 12 And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul;13 That whosoever would not seek the Lord God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman." Exodus 31:12-15 "And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you. 14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death." KJV

Putting beliefs aside and respecting them. The concept of God as a being, the ability to sin against an unproved being, the bible being the actual word of that unproved being, and the Punishment of Israel in the time of David, are also a conjecture. Oh Heck, now I have said it. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/conjecture I may have beliefs on the matter but I have to recognize that much is is not provable to all.

Just for your info Dan I am not a pacifist although I hate violence. I reckon there are times when it is needed, however the OT is littered things I do not see as righteous. You call that God's actions but I just see it as something someone said about God but not something I believe. What you accept is the biblical account on God as just and I do not. I do not even believe half of it ever happened and I do not believe God sent any plague to kill innocent people just because David was a naughty boy. As for righteousness in the bible, one only has to look at some of the so called God given laws to set me with much to question it by. http://www.evilbible.com/evils%20of%20the%20torah.htm

Dan said in post 48 " And I believe in Islam, just not the Muslims spin on it. I don't accept anything the Koran says, I don't believe Mohammad was a prophet, and I'd never accept a tyrannical God like Allah. Dan what you fail to understand is that I do not see the description of God as in the OT as any less tyrannical than Allah. I do believe Allah is Yahweh but I guess you do not, but that said I just do not believe all that is said about Yahweh or Allah. If you want me to talk about the violent descriptions of Yahweh in the OT then I am happy to do that as it does fit with the topic title. Dianna, Much respect for your post..

Dan I believe in Christianity. Just not your take on it. So you do not like the religion of Islam or the Quaran or Allah but you are not judging Muslims. ???? So Christianity does not carry out violence :- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion-related_violence and http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Christian_terrorism Now I know that the majority Christians do not believe in violence but can you understand that the majority of the followers of Islam do not believe in violence either.

That justifies nothing (IMO) Does God use temptation as a tool:- NO! James 1:13 "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." YES! Genesis 22:1 God did tempt Abraham. Matthew 6:13 And lead us not into temptation. 2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go number Israel and Judah. temptation over the census? YES! 2 Samuel 24:1-17 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. ... And David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the LORD, I have sinned greatly in that I have done. ... So the LORD sent a pestilence upon Israel ... and there died of the people .. seventy thousand men. 1 Chronicles 21:2 And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it. ... And God was displeased with this thing; therefore he smote Israel. ... So the LORD sent pestilence upon Israel: and there fell of Israel seventy thousand men.

I still do not see how you can direct criticism at the religion and still not refer to all Muslims who follow that religion. Most that I know argue that those who kill others are not following Islam but a warped version of it. Here is a link that says "human life is Sacred". It does not say only that of Muslims. "Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, We have given his heir authority (to demand Qisas or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the law). (Quran Al-Isra' 17:33) Say: "Come, I will rehearse what Allah has (really) prohibited you from": join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents; kill not your children on a plea of want - We provide sustenance for you and for them - come not nigh to shameful deeds, whether open or secret; take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus does He command you, that you may learn wisdom. (Quran Al-An'am 6:151)" Islam considers human life sacred. Life is to be protected and promoted as much as possible. - See more at: http://www.islamicity.com/Articles/articles.asp?ref=IC0503-2653#sthash.45rf6ks1.dpuf I find that interesting but there is again the fact that the original meaning of love your neighbor as yourself also meant only "your Jewish Neighbors" when it was first spoken in the Torah but religions often develop to include the fellowship of the human race as ones neighbor too . See:- http://www.inner.org/responsa/leter1/RESP22.HTM

I agree Brother Kaman. I heard a similar challenge given by a Muslim female comedian. She said why do people always look to Al Qaeda to know what Muslims think. Would you like it if people went to the KKK to find out about Christianity. I really wish I could remember her name but I am embarrassed as I do not but the point struck home for me.

Dan in describing David as forgiven then how about those who died for his decisions. Like the seventy thousand innocent people destroyed because David took a census. 2 Samuel 24: 13-15. 13 So Gad came to David, and told him, and said unto him, Shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue thee? or that there be three days' pestilence in thy land? now advise, and see what answer I shall return to him that sent me. 14 And David said unto Gad, I am in a great strait: let us fall now into the hand of the Lord; for his mercies are great: and let me not fall into the hand of man. 15 So the Lord sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning even to the time appointed: and there died of the people from Dan even to Beersheba seventy thousand men. KJV How is that Justice?

How was this sarcastic comment not judging all Islam and therefore all Muslims? Lets look at other verses of the Koran from this quote by Sami Zaatari :- :- There are some who would have you believe that the Noble Quran does not respect human life, yet is this the reality? What does the Quran have to say in respect to human life? Is it negative, or is positive? To find out, let us quote the Quran itself, and then we can all come to a proper conclusion. The Noble Quran states the following: On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. (5:32) According to the Quran, if one kills an innocent person, it is like he has killed the whole of humanity! By the same token, if one saved a life, it would be like he has saved the whole of humanity! This teaching is a great example of the Quran’s respect for human life. Let us now quote several other verses which proves this point even further: Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand qisas or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the Law). (17:33) Say: "Come, I will rehearse what Allah hath (really) prohibited you from": Join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents; kill not your children on a plea of want;- We provide sustenance for you and for them;- come not nigh to shameful deeds. Whether open or secret; take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom. (6:151) So with all of these verses how can one say that the Quran does not respect the sanctity of life? And Allah Knows Best!" from:- http://ilovemuhammed.com/noble-quran/noble-teachings/38-the-quran-and-respect-for-human-life I know you believe in the death penalty because you have told me so in the past and we disagreed over it. How are you any different to the theme of these quotes?

Have you seen the information coming from organisations like the Biblical Archaeology Society. There were varying versions of Isaiah and Deuteronomy and many other fragments found among the scrolls and not as you say, just one copy that is the same as today. I recommend this group. I have been a member for a while. They not only publish great books but also many on line lectures. http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/free-ebooks/the-dead-sea-scrolls-discovery-and-meaning/ Things are not as clear cut as you present them. You would also find that your often used quote that archaeology does not contradict the bible, that it does often and in many areas.

Dan we can all pick out the worst verses from text in scriptures. It is unfair to judge all Christians by such verses so why do you judge Muslims by such verses. I also note that there were mosques being set on fire in many places in the UK. It is not the Muslims doing that. From the bible:-: "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. She must be quiet." (1 Timothy 2:12) "Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses." (1 Samuel 15:3) "You shall not let a sorceress live." (Exodus 22:18) "Happy those who seize your children and smash them against a rock." (Psalm 137:9) "When the men would not listen to his host, the husband seized his concubine and thrust her outside to them. They had relations with her and abused her all night until the following dawn, when they let her go. Then at daybreak the woman came and collapsed at the entrance of the house in which her husband was a guest, where she lay until the morning. When her husband rose that day and opened the door of the house to start out again on his journey, there lay the woman, his concubine, at the entrance of the house with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, 'Come, let us go'; but there was no answer. So the man placed her on an ass and started out again for home." (Judges 19:25-28) "And the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity." (Romans 1:27) "Jephthah made a vow to the Lord. 'If you deliver the Ammonites into my power,' he said, 'whoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites shall belong to the Lord. I shall offer him up as a holocaust.' ... When Jephthah returned to his house in Mizpah, it was his daughter who came forth, playing the tambourines and dancing. She was an only child: he had neither son nor daughter besides her. When he saw her, he rent his garments and said, 'Alas, daughter, you have struck me down and brought calamity upon me. For I have made a vow to the Lord and I cannot retract'." (Judges 11:30-1, 34-5) "Then God said: 'Take your son Isaac, your only one, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah. There you shall offer him up as a holocaust on a height that I will point out to you'."(Genesis 22:2) "Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord." (Ephesians 5:22) "Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse." (1 Peter 2:18)from:- http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles_of_faith/2009/09/top_ten_worst_b.html

I do not think a person needs a religion to teach the value of another human being or a be a church goer to have moral values. I also do not believe that attending a church as a child automatically means your children will grow up to have moral values. Joseph Stalin trained to be a priest before he was a dictator.

Funny though Dan that is just how I see the bible promises as being "without foundation". I have looked at the history and looked at the arguments of fundamentalist Christianity and found them baseless (IMO). As I have pointed out before I believe you preach a God who lost control of his creation and cannot forgive his creation for that unless something or someone dies. Who approached a small and obscure nation of people (in biblical times) to give them a law that never saved anyone from God's judgmental attitudes, who then decided to kill his son so that he could forgive them, and his words of salvation are written in a book which is full of inconsistencies and contradictions and took years to decide on what went into it and which of the versions of the many texts should go in it and still today we have 2000 years later debate on how to interpret it. I am sorry but I believe all you presented to me is a vision of a tyrant and incompetent God who cannot love beyond a given set of dogmas and then you say within that highly disputed text is promises that I can be assured of. I personally do not see your position as having much foundation either. Lets also move on from this, we have the OT text that was passed on for many years by word of mouth and there is variances in what it says as found in the dead sea scrolls. We have Gospel writings that have no proof that they truly reflected the ministry of Jesus or were written by people who ever knew Jesus. Which was chosen out of many differing accounts being chosen because they corresponded to the ministry of Paul who again has no proof that he ever met Jesus or that he ever had any agreement with his disciples and even he declares he had little to do with them and what contact he did have with them appeared frosty or contradictory. Now you say I should feel assured about all of this.

I guess I am tired. This month I hear of a poor soldier being stabbed to death in the streets of London by two persons, six other individuals planning to plant a bomb in the UK in hope of starting a ** for tat reaction with the British public, Mosques being set on fire all over the country and I heard about a 15 year old boy being killed by being shot in the face in front of his Mother and Father for being an "atheist" and the one thing they all have in common is that they were purpetrated by people who could not see beyond their dogma. I know fundamentalist Christians do not want to go about stabbing people but they do feel it is righteous that God will judge everyone who disagrees with a single given belief and cast them into eternal hell and torture for it. Something I find very disturbing and wonder what kind of God cannot love beyond dogma and what kind of persons follow that viewpoint without question. Sorry if this offends but its been a tough month emotionally for me.

I say again, that I do not reject the bible. Just how fundamentalism sees it. I do not give fundamentalism the right to say how I should or should not see it. Your wrong that I see the synoptic Gospels in the same light as I do the Gnostic Gospels but each one gives an insight into how people saw things back then and its history. You see every word as God spoken and I see the word of history as having meaning for me. I feel it is typical for you to say I reject this and that because that is how fundamentalist groups have always seen things (IMO). There are those who the in crowd and those who are the outsiders. I see the truth coming from many areas and you see it as from only the one. Hence, you can look at condemnation as being just for those who disagree with your viewpoint but I see for everyone condemn either in judgement day or whatever as another light going out and an increase in the darkness. We are not going to agree but Jesus has meaning for me despite how you see it. Reject that or reject it not but I do not care for rejection. There are some lovely people in this world and I will never agree to their rejection just because they do not sign up to a given dogma. That to me was never what Jesus was about (IMO).

I maybe wrong but I read Sirius' post as having the right of freedom of religion but also the right not to be of it too. That is something I agree with.

I see a 15 year old boy in Syria has been shot in the face and killed in front of his parents because he was said to be an atheist. I do not fear the religious but I really fear the extremists whether they be of religion, philosophy or politics and the world seek to create. I am with Sirius on this one.

As I have previously said Dan, can a God who watches suffering and chooses to do nothing be trusted to make things better. You have mentioned before about the war in heaven among the angels. I stand back and ask if that is so then what assurances do we have that things will be better next time because that too was under God's rule according to scripture.. I am not going to be reassured by a bible quote and especially one from revelations but I just see this life as the place the spirit grows and the next life as the place the spirit is set free. I do not believe hell exists except in the English translation of Greek text being made from a possible Aramaic origin. However, I do see the lives of many are suffering a hell now and that bothers me.

. Thanks Brother Devon, I have a lot of respect for you. I just get a little touchy when phrases are used like "You have rejected the bible" when what has happened is that I have a differing understanding of the bible and sentences that start with " To a Christian believer" because it appears to suggest that all Christians think alike and if I want to use such a title (which I do) I should agree with this too. I may not agree with the so called fundamental beliefs that conservatives do but I still see myself as a Christian albeit Liberal. Like you I do not presume to say that my view is the correct one or the only correct one. I believe there is that of God in all. I also believe God to be more understanding then some religions are or have been. We may disagree but we are not God and are not gifted with complete understanding. I know I do not often quote Paul but this rings a bell with me "For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." NIV 1 Corinthians 13:12 I guess that is where we all stand at present

You bring up another issue Dianna in that the NT is not presented in a chronological form. Paul's letters were said to have been written first and then the gospel of Mark (minus the resurrection parts), then Matthew and later Luke. Then around the turn of the century John was written. Later still the book of acts was written. There is a great debate between the fundamentalist and the liberal school as what the dates were but a good guide (IMO) is found at the earlychristianwritings site See:- http://earlychristianwritings.com/ For me it shows when presented in the chronological form the influence of Paul's teachings ahead of that of the gospels writers and his influence upon them. .