Coolhand

Well it would appear that you are stuck then Pete. This confusion you have regarding these simple biblical principals is not going to be a good selling point for your brand of "liberal Christianity." People need answers; all you have is questions. What your brand of theology appears to promote, is the disregard of the Bible, while at the same time quoting the Bible, but also refusing to handle the Bible correctly. I think it is convenient how your theology releases you from any error and inconsistency, and how it shoots the message and the messenger. Inherent in your theology seems to be this disproportionate pride and confidence in claiming the Bible is wrong, flawed, etc., while asserting that somehow you know better the Word we have been given. Even more ridicules than the insult to the Word of God that you perpetrate is the lack of answers that your theology provides. Just some observations from a fellow student.

I have explained to you in the past that your biblical perspective is flawed. I have recommend two books to you to help you with that: "Reading the Bible for all its Worth" by Fee and Stuart, and "Biblical Interpretation: Playing by the Rules" by Stein. You refused to read them at the time, and by the way you are currently handling Scripture, I can see you have still ignored that advice. So, being you refuse to approach the Bible correctly-by understanding context, genre, and theme- arguing Scripture with you would be useless. So, "reflective" questioning that is targeting invalid conclusions is the only way to address the issue with you. I agree with you that the deaths that you cited are tragic. I would argue that these deaths are not the result of an unjust God being negligent or wicked, but rather that it is an issue of sovereignty and purpose. The Bible tells us that an archangel rebelled and had a following of rebels. The Bible tells us that these beings had authority and dominion over geographical areas and that their power and authority is fueled, it grows, and gains momentum when people join in their rebellion against God. God gave these rebels authority and they still have that authority; the Bible also tells us that the gifts of God are irrevocable. Where it has been said that either God is not in control, or does not have power over all, or is twisted and enjoys torment by not preventing it, God is merely respecting the sovereignty of the beings to which he has granted it; just like he respects yours and mine. Now, these rebels can be defeated, and God will fight against them and defeat these rebels on behalf of those who side with God and against the rebels. The rejection of God, the pursuit of idolatry, and a syncretistic commitment to God by a person or group of people will not get God to fight the rebels that are causing the genocide you are referring to; the “installed” authorities will prevail. Total and exclusive commitment to God will ensure that He will fight and overcome the rebels and grant wisdom to understand His Word. It’s all in the Bible.

A more theologically astute question would be to ask what Job, the servant of the Lord in Isaiah, and Jesus all have in common. But the problem with asking a question like that is that to answer that question a person must do more than misapply Scripture verses that are isolated from their context.

Right......so He sends evil our way but tells us to over come evil, and says if we do not over come evil, he will will lose our place in heaven. Is that it Fawzo? This God has problems bro.

I would not call it "logic" to be devoted to an impotent God that does not help you, or a sick God causes evil to befall those who He allegedly loves. You call it "logic" to say the God of the Bible is defective, and you call it "logic" to say the the Bible is defective. What makes you think that your "logic" is not the defective piece here. Differing conclusion; ok: your logic is flawed.

Actually, you are the one speaking as if you are an authority on omniscience, what the possibilities are. I'm just asking you how how confident you are in your seemingly absolute assertion of what is. It would be difficult for me to love a God that I thought was repsonsible for all the evil that has happened to me however. God loves us so He sends evil our way? Is that it?

That is the only way? No other way could possiblly exist according to you, is that what you are saying? One way and one way only, right?

What is the ONE SOURCE?

Just out of curiosity: What is the score on this topic? Is any progress being made?

Keep Richie in your prayers………… I just left the gym and was jogging home. I saw a guy standing in front of one the stores on Palm Ave as I was going by and said to him, “Hey, how are you?” He responded with, “I’m great; you should congratulate me?” I stopped jogging and said to him “Alright, I give up, why should I congratulate you?” Richie said, “I just got out of prison after being in for 19 years for homicide.” So, I congratulated him, we spoke for about 10 minutes. I asked him if I could pray with him, he agreed, we prayed. Keep him in your prayers please.

Here is a site that has some pretty good Hebrew tools and lessons, and the weekly Torah readings: http://www.hebrew4christians.net/Scripture/Parashah/parashah.html

How great is our God

Amen....continuing to lift our brothers and sister in Haiti up in prayer.

Absolutlety! Right on brother!

I can definatly "amen" that! Kinda reminds me of this: The Sanhedrin is Confused Over Christ 45 Then the officers came to the chief priests and Pharisees, who said to them, “Why have you not brought Him?” 46 The officers answered, “No man ever spoke like this Man!” 47 Then the Pharisees answered them, “Are you also deceived? 48 Have any of the rulers or the Pharisees believed in Him? 49 But this crowd that does not know the law is accursed.”50 Nicodemus(he who came to Jesus by night, being one of them) said to them, 51 “Does our law judge a man before it hears him and knows what he is doing?” 52 They answered and said to him, “Are you also from Galilee? Search and look, for no prophet has arisen out of Galilee.” The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1996, c1982), Jn 7:45.

Nice post NW!

Maybe I missed your point; are you suggesting that Ken here has rejected every attempt God has made to establish a relationship with him, and that Ken died rejecting God? Are you now suggesting that Ken rejected the revelation that God had given him? Are you suggesting that Ken at some point has flat out rejected God in his life? If you are NOT suggesting this then you have no basis for accusing some of us of tweaking your question. There is not one detail in your hypothecical that would lead me to believe Ken was condemned by God because you didn't mention anything that God would condemn him for. It appears you are trying to force everyone into an assumption that you have that was not given in your senario. Pete, you are shaking Dan's hand here and at the same time giving him two black eyes. Dan has not said anything wrong I will agree, yet you are using his comments to show that he has a less complete understanding of God than you claim to have, you are using his comments to show that the Bible is unreliable AGAIN because of YOUR misunderstanding and misuse of it, and you are attempting to show us that you have the most complete understanding of God and are more honest than what you consider to be conservsative Christians. Not a good liberal and conservative contrast Pete. Regardless of the distraction of the background information, if your intended question was: "Do people who reject God go to heaven?" Then my answer would be no. Whether there was sin in Ken's life at the time he died that he did not repent of is irrelevant, his relationship with God (or lack of) is the issue.

One of the Maccabees tells where Judas made atonement for the dead, and Paul also makes a statement that is kind of vauge refering to baptism for the dead; don't forget.

First Part: I don't think there is a Bible verse that says the prayers of a believer can save a non-believer; and I am not say that is possible. I will say you are being judgemental if you claim you know the true condition of Ken's heart and his relationship with God; or anyone elses for that matter, bro. Second Part: I'm not really sure what you think I said. Instead telling me I have distorted your question, why don't you tell me where and how you think I distorted your question.

As I see it, her prayer for mercy was heard and answered. To what degree is according to her faith. As I see it we have no basis so far with the information given to assume that Ken was condemned by God to start with; much less if he remained condemned by God. To me it seems wrong to assume Ken is or was condemned by at all. In fact we have no reason all to assume that Ken in anywhere else but with Jesus praying for us.

You got that right brother!

Nice Pete!

Nice!........right on bro! I totally agree. Having been in this situation I know what you are saying is true; If you can communitcate the love of God to the hurting person, God does the rest. Amen brother.

Oh.....it's that simple eh Pete? Here is one for you: You walk into church and you are getting ready for the service to start. You notice someone new sitting alone away from everyone else and crying. You walk over and introduce yourself, he introduces himself and tells you that he is going to kill himself, but his uncle told him he needed to go to 'a church' and talk to someone first. What do you do next? (After you breathe in and out...lol)

Of course it is; everything we do or think is based on a belief.