Coolhand

Let me remind you of what your response was: Summary: people are good and evil, there is no overcoming the evil, and that is just how it is. Not only is there no hope in that, but it is not true! We can overcome evil in our personal lives, and nationally, but it has to be done through Jesus Christ. Liberal Christianity may not provide the means of overcoming evil, but there is the promise and hope of overcoming evil through biblical Christianity. You can gain hope that the work that Jesus began in you when you became spiritually awakened, that He will continue to work until He comes back for you. You can gain hope through that knowledge that Jesus has overcome evil and will lead you and guide you regarding you can also. You can gain hope that by praying in the name and authority of Jesus Christ that by Him answering your prayers God the father is glorified. You can gain hope that by the repentance and by forsaking the sin an evil in your life you can walk in purity before God with a clear conscience. I do have someone holding my hand on this, by the way, and I feel He is better equipped than you are.

I am saying that you, we, they, all of us have access to the resurrection power of Jesus Christ through a personal relationship with Him. For over 2,000 years this has been available, been made plain, and known throughout the world, especially known in the western world. God chose Jesus to be the link between Himself and man and proved it by raising from the dead; an event which was adequately documented. If you or anybody decides to live your life apart from having a relationship with Jesus Christ you cannot blame God for the tragedies that result. It has been my experience and I have witnessed this through many others as well, that the Bible is accurate and is the only tool that exists to assists us in drawing close to God, gain victory over the enemy, and it works. I understand that you refuse to come to the plate on this issue of sovereignty and purpose in regard to God’s action or lack thereof, but in doing so you are rejecting the piece you need to actually understand what you are talking about. This is not a philosophical argument, this is a spiritual war, plain and simple. I have adequately explained this to you Pete, now it is your turn. You explain to me what happened to the 6 million Jews. How did it happen, and why didn't the liberal Christian God stop it? What explanation according to liberal Christianity is there for this tragedy?

The false dichotomy that you are asserting is that hope and truth do not coexist. Besides setting people free, the truth also gives hope.

What hope am I supposed to gain from that?

If you are right, why does evil still exist? Why havent we well intentioned humans been able to extinguish evil? If humans allowed 6 million Jews to be killed and could have stopped it without spiritual help and did not, does that not prove man is flawed?

The word Agape itself is not a problem; however, the serious exegete will apply the definition to the word that the word meant at the time of the document's authorship; not what the word came to mean years later.

Of course; I pray for mercy for all men now. I suppose the final judgment you are referring to is described here" 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. The Holy Bible : New International Version (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996, c1984), Re 20:10-15. 16 Then those who feared the Lord talked with each other, and the Lord listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning those who feared the Lord and honored his name. 17 “They will be mine,” says the Lord Almighty, “in the day when I make up my treasured possession. I will spare them, just as in compassion a man spares his son who serves him. 18 And you will again see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between those who serve God and those who do not. 4 “Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the Lord Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them. 2 But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings. And you will go out and leap like calves released from the stall. 3 Then you will trample down the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I do these things,” says the Lord Almighty. 4 “Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel. 5 “See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse.” The Holy Bible : New International Version (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996, c1984), Mal 3:16-4:6. 12 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wisea will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. The Holy Bible : New International Version (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996, c1984), Da 12:1-3. Eternal versus annihilation? How? It's time for specifics; if there is another way, how?

Ah'hava is the love which exisits between a husband and a wife. It's not that there are specific conditions to it, but that it is not unconditional. Unconditional love was a foriegn concept until the the translation into Greek started. The only difficulty I have with unconditional love is that it is not biblical, and creates confusion with people understanding that God does have a limit, and people can reach the end of that limit. Regarding the guys that crucified Jesus, unless they repented of that sin, they will be judged for that sin.

Unfortunatly, yes. Again, Jesus Christ is the only one through which we have a chance to overcome the destruction that is aimed at us. Show me another way; and ignoring it or not addressing it (which is the route of liberal Christianity and all other religions as I understand them) is not another way.

Ok, so then you have a problem because how can an unconditionally loving God carryout judgment? Specifically that of the eternal lake of fire? Does that go like this: "I love you SO MUCH and unconditionally that I will watch you fry for ever for rejecting me." Is that how that goes Rainbow? Or is there no lake of fire?

Like what?

Coincidentally, I see your position as anthropocentric in that the focus is on man and not on God. It is God that equips us to make the right choices and actually fights for us when we submit to Him. To assume we can do it without God or on our own is just pending disaster. The story starts off with evil already in existence. We do not have the answer to why it is there or why is allowed to exist. That question is almost irrelevant though being that God has made a way for us to overcome evil and all we have to do is go along with His program. He makes it real simple.

Well, we can do a survey and find out which religions encourage us to war with these unseen forces. It appears to me that only Jesus has given us the authority to carry out this battle, and only through His name are we supposed to do battle. Am I correct?

It is interesting that you choose to characterize God's love as agape love; and you choose the highly "Christianized" version of agape love which is that of unconditional love. Agape is a Greek word. Ah'hava is the Hebrew word for which the Greek word agape is substituted. Ah'hava describes the deep, committed, and sacrificial love between a husband and a wife, not an unconditional love. Reading the Hebrew Scriptures you find out quickly that God's love is indeed conditional. I would argue to you and others that you should evaluate whether you could be being led astray by a spirit that is other than God. And due to the subjective nature of your religious experience, you have nothing to measure against to see if you are being led astray or not; you only have a feeling and emotion. I would also argue that the graveyards and prisons are full of people who have acted solely on feeling and emotion. How would you answer those two arguments?

Well I guess it depends on how you understand the will of God. Starting in Genesis, it is "in your face" obvious that God requires everyman to make a choice. Your argument seems to be based on the conclusion that God (as the Bible describes Him) is at fault for not insulating mankind away from making a wrong choice. The first couple had the choice between the tree of life, and the tree of the knwoledge of good and evil. Is it not obvious that part of the will of God is for mankind to choose his or her way?

The short answer is that there is a strong demonic force behind Nazism whose sovereignty remained unchallenged which resulted in that tragedy. Saying that someone forgot to pray (in my opinion) would be an understatement. I would add praying and fasting is required, but specifically praying in Jesus name and through His authority is the key. Pete, you keep saying that I have not answered your question. Whether you agree with my answer or not, can you acknowledge that I have answered your question?

Well Pete, are you saying that you do not understand authority, power, and dominion? I am saying that God does not override established authority, power, and dominion unless He is invited to by the one or the group that is being oppressed. I want to focus on this part here with you Pete. Please respond (Pete) specifically to the above post.

Good points, but let's not make the mistake of confusing God's chastening with God's judgment. God's judgment is something totally different; judgment does comes when people continually rebel against God. If you are going to look at the instances where God judges rebellion against Him (which He is clear about, which He says He will do), then you are causing your own stumbling block in understanding the big picture. These judgments from God never came because someone made a simple mistake either. They came because of a planned and premeditated conspiracy against God. Don't forget that either.

Right, evil can cover a pretty broad range. Let me clarify what I am saying:(a) It is unbiblical to suggest that God chastens people by killing them, giving them aids, HEP C, diabeties or any other disease; (b) the diseases listed in 'a' (and all others) are not God's chastening but are destructive attacks sent to us from Satan, not God; © any of these attacks (or evil) against a person should result in the person seeking God's deliverance, power, and wisdom to fight it; not succomb to it; (d) God's chastening is to restore us, not destroy us.

Abraham, Moses, Joshua, David, and Jesus; these are all fictitious and/or mythical characters?

Notice how you lay all the blame on God in your synopsis. That is one of the oldest tricks in the book. Adam did the same thing.

Finish that sentence: "God id not willing that any should perish but..........." Do you not acknowledge that you have a degree of sovereignty and freedom to choose your path for yourself?

I disagree Fawzo and would say that the approach you are describing disregards what was given to us to help us know God and know about God. And here comes the pride statement where you claim that you are farther advanced spiritually than those who participate in organized religion. Not much has changed. The Old Testament is rich with examples of God’s love and mercy. I have spent too much time trying to explain this to people on this forum, who have political reasons and personal reasons for holding that portion of the Bible in disdain, who use their faulty understanding of the Old Testament to encourage themselves that they should continue to disregard and criticize it, and encourage others to adapt the same philosophy regarding it. BUT, you are in luck! I am in between classes and the time to give you a brief summary that may help. Abraham We start with the creation in chapter one. Chapter two, interestingly enough, instead of God being called elohim, He is now referred to YHWH elohim. Many attribute this to being because of two different authors. A better understanding is that the master story teller is alerting the reader that there is going to be a covenant coming; a foreshadow. In chapter three the fall of man occurs and then guess what; a covenant. The woman is told that her seed will crush the head of the serpent, referring to Satan which indicates this fierce spiritual battle that we are all born into. This was not the complete covenant, only part of it. The covenant revelation is continued in chapter 9:27. Some of you guys that read the Hebrew text will get what I am saying here, others may not, but in 9:27b (the second half of vs 27) Japeth (in the Hebrew) is the object not the subject, so what is being said is that God will dwell in the tents of Shem. This further reveals where God’s covenantal salvation to man is going to come from. Continue to chapter 12:2-3 and you will the complete revelation of God’s covenantal salvation: through Abraham God is going to bless the whole world. So far, we have the fall (Eden), the flood (Noah), and the flop (tower of babel), and then the promise to bless the world through Abraham and his ‘seed’. Moses The law is then given to Moses which detail God’s purity standards. God called His people, delivered them from the Egyptians, and blessed them so that they would be a blessing to the rest of the world. Make no mistake; they were to be totally free of the practices of the nations that were around them. They were to be a pure nation that was supposed to draw all other nations to God. With the strict rules, also came the very presence of God dwelling among them, which no other nation has enjoyed since. Joshua This conquest period is the period that gets most of the heat (IMO) from people. Go in and kill them all; not very loving or merciful, right right. However, God’s enduring mercy and love is only promised to those who love Him and carry out is world mission to draw all people to Him. These nations which were “removed” from the land refused the calling of God to deal justly with others regardless of the hundreds of years of warnings that God had given them. They were judged; straight up. Neither God nor the Bible makes any bones about that; that they were judged. David Through David, the covenant with Abraham was reaffirmed and continued; the world was to be blessed by Israel, and they were to be God’s missionary agency through which the world was to be drawn to God. David was the second king of Israel; the kings brought the need for the prophets, and the kings wrote the wisdom literature. So far, we have the Torah (the teaching), the Neviim (the prophets), and the Ketuvim (the writings); the main point minus all the gory details, which are abundant. This blessing of Abraham is the central theme of the Old Testament which would be continued through the New Testament. Jesus We start off in Matthew where the genealogy introduces Jesus as the son of David, the son of Abraham, which shows not only that Jesus is a continuation of the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants, but also the fulfillment. The Kingdom of Heaven/God was the major theme of Jesus’ teaching; a continuation of the blessing of Abraham. This basic presupposition (blessing of Abraham- kingdom of God) is required in order to understand the context of the Bible and what the point of all that goes on in the Bible means. Without this understanding of the main points of Scripture the parables of Jesus make no sense, Revelation makes no sense, Pentecost makes no sense, the problem of evil makes no sense, redemption and salvation make no sense, etc. Now, the ball is in your court. You can consider this brief outline as you reflect on what you know about the Bible. Regarding the claims that the Bible is full of fables, you have to conclude that on your own. Jonah and the fish, well, Jesus who came back from the dead believed it was historical and not mythical. Regarding the attempts to superimpose to cultural and ritual demands of the Torah on society today, or to even suggest that it is proper to impose those culture demands today misses the point. That culture is long gone, however, the moral and ethical principals expressed are timeless and should be observed; per Jesus and Paul.

People do need and are looking for answers; I’m not sure where you are coming from there. I constantly hear questions that specifically start with “If”, “why”, and “how.” I guess somehow you think that if people have answers they lack other positive traits? Like it is desirable to not know anything, but the point is to be on some kind of philosophical journey? I suppose an agnostic utopia of some sort? That seems irrelevant to life as I know it. Could you summarize the Bible in one sentence? You know, like capture the main thought or purpose. Or, do you see a main thought or purpose that runs through the whole Bible?

Uh, no, I did answer your question, and I know you read it because dismissed it by saying it was myth. It is obvious from the biblical text that God wants to build a family of over comers. A family of people who choose to overcome, not family of people that have no choice to overcome, but people who will in fact choose to be over comers even when it cost them something; or everything. Again Pete, this is all basic biblical teaching. You have you answers right in front of you.