RevBogovac

Yes, and exactly as Jonathan has also noticed; the bible uses its religion as a weapon against its "enemies". The strange part here being that it commands obedience from it's followers not to pursue their own nature but to go against it and only acknowledge the authority of the bible (and - obviously - its representatives. (How funny it is to perceive the second commandment in that light.) I - personally - am however more inclined to see it the way Pete sees it too; if you do not take care of yourself first, how are you going to be able to take care of others?

Thank you for joining, Dan. There is definitely more to life than pleasing oneself. But that's the beauty of it too; a lot of people find pleasure in pleasing others... it's actually how a lot of us (and other social animals too) are "wired". There is a certain amount of reciprocity to be found in there... Exactly Key, it has passed this discussion several times too but I certainly appreciate your addition towards a cooperative society... I would almost conclude: it is OK to pursue your own pleasure, by all means please do. But there are always consequences to your choices and actins. So please consider these too... and maybe, just maybe that would give us all a more pleasurable world to live in...

Oh, may I please jump through that hoop. May I, may I, pleaaaaaase...? 🙃 From an extremists/puritan's point of view it is the proof that his god is real because his god has left the physical world to Satan to rule...

That was my point, actually... And having been in the Balkan wars in the 90's twice myself ('91 and '94) I have seen my share of terror (spoiler: "they" never turned back nor fled, fortunately I have never seen the impaled babies that have been reported). So to get this back "on topic": wouldn't it be much nicer if we'd all just focus on pursuing pleasure...?

I certainly agree with this view; the more whole individual will certainly acknowledge the interdependency of one owns pleasure with that of the group...

I would like to ask you to reconsider; if we take "Vlad the impaler" for "Dracula" then I don't know if your comparison stands... 🙃 Anyway; the "pun" was intended but maybe lost in translation. We're drifting off topic anyway. Let's heat back...

Everybody thinks he's "special", but on closer examination we are all (again: except socio-/psychopats) very similar. There are no vampires (or let's agree it's useless to discuss them; call me an apatheist...). And I disagree; (the happy feeling you get from) feeding a hungry friend is also enjoyable. It's basically a big motivation of a lot of policemen, firefighters and medical personnel...

For most people it doesn't make a difference because it both "feels good"... doesn't it?

Yes. And a true hedonist acknowledges that... to truly proceed on the path towards maximising pleasure one needs to constantly keep the common good in mind (except for psycho-/sociopaths, but that's another issue)... That brings us to utilitarianism.

Sure, as the cat said: if you don't know where you are going it doesn't matter what road you take... So the goal would be to pursue pleasure. But the journey asks more from you than only, blindly, seeking you own pleasure... Does it, for instance, provide you pleasure if you step all over other people just to fulfil your own needs...?

I can not speak for Pete in particular (or even Qigong in general) but I do know that Taiji helps me (a lot)... both physically and (therefore also?) mentally... 15 mins./day is "all" it takes (to experience a significant difference).

Isn't the journey more important than the goal...? But yes, my liberty ends where yours starts...

Well, I would like the definition of "the pursuit / seeking of pleasure" more. There's a distinction. And to be honest your addition is not so much an addition in the philosophy itself as much as it is a distinction in how well someone is able to pursue a: "train of thought". If someone is shortsighted then he'd probably just keep on eating - for instance - while if someone actually thinks one step further than he'd probably come to the conclusion that might not be very pleasurable at all. And if we look at the ancient Greek philosopher there's also Aristotle who proposed the "golden mean" (using more or less the same examples)... but even the ancient Hedonist were well versed in athletics (which they obviously found enjoyable) as well as debating... (although I must admit that the term diabetic is also a Greek one and the affliction was also described in those times...). I believe (pun intended) that if most people were educated/raised well enough that Hedonism would bring a better world: we'd be pursuing our own happiness but also understand that to be happy we need a healthy body and a healthy environment...

In another topic we stumbled upon a interesting dicussion (at least in my opinion) and I would like to make a start discussing it further. If we would consider that religion: can bring people together to improve themselves and their communities. Those are three worthwhile goals. But are there secular ways to achieve these goals? Are there non-religious philosophies that could make the world a better place? Let's start with hedonism. I am a firm believer in that (pun intended)...

They didn't care...? 😇

In this topic? Wouldn't that be a bit off topic...? I wouldn't mind a separate topic about non-religious philosophies that could make the world a better place. Let's start with hedonism. I am a firm believer in that (pun intended)...

That being said, I hope we see more of you around.

Oh, I have no problem with not being as often as we used to in the office... but I'm a people's person. I need to see people in person. So much information gets lost on these digital mediums. I like working from home for the digital part (doing my analyses, writing reports et cetera... the production part). But for the analog part I really miss people (let's say for at least 2 days/week).

First of all: welcome! I sincerely hope not.

How very recognizable. It reminds me of something I read the other day: Sounds like someone we might know...?

Oh man... that's tough. Don't get too worked up. We're here for you. We hear you (OK, not all of us... 😆).

I tend to agree with the mod on this because religions thrive under persecution. It's better to let them vent their beliefs and opinions out in the open for everyone to see and decide for themselves whether they are believable and honourable. Although mod also has to understand that venting a belief or opinion that is proven ridiculous also opens up the one stating those opinions to ridicule (like claiming Noah's flood happend literally and the god of the bible is a loving god) I tend to agree with Jonathan's stance on this; it is insane to (repeatedly) argue with someone who is so rigid not to be able to understand basic things like: So best to let them out in the open and just question the basics openly... I know, I - for one - have learned a lot by your discussions (and have reassessed my orthodox christianity accordingly). Thank you all for that!

I tried putting that notion up... But Dan's stayed in character:

Thank you for confirming that since your god can not be demonstrated to exist the question of your god's existence is both meaningless and futile. It is simply irrelevant.

Please let me help you, Dan; there is a big (huge) difference between past, present and future tense here. Demonstrable means: able to be proved. So Dan; what can be done, repeatedly (or as scientists tend to say: verifiably), to demonstrate your god exists?