Fawzo

The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm. The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet. At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt. In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed. Who can stand before his fierce anger? Who can survive his burning fury? His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in his presence. The LORD is good. When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge. And he knows everyone who trusts in him. But he sweeps away his enemies in an overwhelming flood. He pursues his foes into the darkness of night. (Nahum 1:2-8 NLT)

We also know that the 70,000 men killed didn't include the women, children and slaves who would have been killed but unlisted by the misogynistic writers of the Bible. We also know that David was given a choice of three different forms of punishment: “This is what the Lord says: ‘Take your choice: 12 three years of famine, three months of being swept away[a] before your enemies, with their swords overtaking you, or three days of the sword of theLord—days of plague in the land, with the angel of the Lord ravaging every part of Israel.’ Now then, decide how I should answer the one who sent me.” So Dan's attempt at justifying God's action by claiming it was only men who had already disobeyed God seems very implausible to me. In none of the three scenarios presented wouldn't innocent children and some unborn die. I think David's lamentation also disproves Dan's theory. David said to God, “Was it not I who ordered the fighting men to be counted? I, the shepherd,[c] have sinned and done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? Lord my God, let your hand fall on me and my family, but do not let this plague remain on your people.”

Dan your reasoning makes not no any sense to me for the killing of the 70,000. So according to you God still has an alleged anger hangover and he really can't wreak his form of punitive vengeance and havoc and justice on these people until he tempts David, causing David to Sin, which makes God even angrier so that then God's anger and need for justice is sufficient to justify killing 70,000 humans. Man it was bad enough when my mom use to tell us kids you just wait until your dad gets home before we got the belt, imagine having to wait three years. Have you stopped to think why would God have to justify his anger by basically forcing David to sin against him?

Dan said >>>>>>"I'm just stating what I believe, and not suggesting what you should believe. I believe God is in complete control and has always been very forgiving. You obviously have a lot of disdain for the biblical God, but remember that King David deserved death, but upon repentance he was forgiven of adultery and murder. Simply stated, I believe everyone will either receive God's Grace or God's Wrath, there is no middle ground." God is in complete control?!?!?! Really and he is right this minute standing by and watching innocent women and children, even some newborns, being brutally raped and murdered. Newborns being born with birth defects that will create life times of suffering. If God is in complete control isn't free will a faux gift and of no consequence? How could he also have just stood by and watched all those children who have just suffered and died horrible deaths around the planet from malnutrition expire while I typed this message. At least 5 of them just passed. King David was guilty of offending God on multiple occasions and each time others perished. One time it was 70,000 Hebrews until God repented of the evil he had done and another time it was the death of an completely innocent child and yet you still see this as justice and righteous. This God who wants to kill us all because we have offended him except that his only son seeing the injustice of it says wait no dad don't kill them, kill me instead and then this God accepts the sacrificial offering still incapable of forgiving and allowing his anger to abate, because his obsession for payment and vegeance far exceeds any hint of mercy, compassion and forgiveness and then he pulls the trigger killing his only son because someone has to pay the price. Complete control......methinks not!!!

My answers to your question are insecure ignorant gullible people and nothing that I could even remotely label as any type of sophisticated God would behave thusly. Saying that though a Dan like thought immediately popped into my head of what kind of parameters would I set to insure my children would learn not to harm and infringe upon one another's precious gift of free will which I have bestowed upon them, or could that quite possibly be the whole point of this exercise in physicality which we perceive and experience.

Pastor day I am quite aware of the allegorical import of the story in getting the point across that something occurred way back in the beginning that caused the fall of humans from grace with their newly found ability to perceive "self" "other" and duality in general. What this knowledge also does for me though is to confirm that any need for a bloody human sacrifice to rectify the situation is also allegorical and mythical at best.

I love your last analogy of the piano keys and notes. How could anyone ever imagine that God would desire an orchestra of all middle C notes. We can see plainly by the Universe that reflects a portion of his majesty that he loves diversity, color and change. So clearly any belief system that teaches their way is the only way isn't paying very close attention to what the great Creator desires.

Pete has it correct in that I do not think that it is a perversion of love for someone to want to bear the suffering of ones they love in their place. Such acts are examples of true selfless unconditional love. The perversion is in calling the person or Entity who would require and accept such an act of sacrifice as a necessary requirement before they are able to forgive another sentient being their debt an act of LOVE. Apparently Forgiveness and Mercy have different definitions in Christianity then they do in the real world. Forgiveness does not involve a required atonement of any type. Such a requirement becomes extraction at best and extortion at worst. In Christianity someone paid the price that was due, nothing was forgiven. The price was paid in blood, guts and suffering No Mercy Showed. Your debt to God was not forgiven in the least it was transferred upon another being who died and suffered an horrible agonizing death, in your place, while an unbending debtor watched as his own Son was tortured to pay the price God himself set and was unwavering in not granting forgiveness of any kind. Your self assessment of your life without Christianity is a perfect example of the psychological problems I feel indoctrination in Christianity has created in our world. Firstly the guilt for having an innocent sentient being die in your place because you feel your life is worth less then doggy doo has to have some type of effect on the subconscious. Secondly if you view your own life in this manner how must you view and judge the lives of others. I cannot see how levels of low self esteem cannot be increased even if only on a subconscious level. Myself and others here see your life as way more important then doogy doo my friend. You have enriched the lives of thousands if not more with your actions and the way you care about others. Jesus dying on the cross didn't do that, you do because of love and compassion for others. Yes Jesus may be the point of focus you use to help you focus your energies in that direction, but the cross doesn't need to be the only point of focus that people use to focus and behave thusly, and such people as yourself don't cease to exist if the name of Jesus was never heard of in our world. Many people recognize the Divine Spark of love that rests hidden at the core of every individual and would behave Christlike if Christ never even existed. Think of the great Mystics before Jesus even walked the earth and after that don't accept his bloody sacrifice as a necessity before they can partake of the love of the Divine.

Well depending whether one believes Luke's account of what Paul did after his conversion in ACTS or Paul's own words in GALATIANS, and we'll play it safe and take Paul's own words in GALATIANS. He claims he spent three years studying scriptures to find himself approved. That could quite possibly mean he spent three years "scripture mining" to find any sacred Jewish Scriptures to build his case or prove to himself that Jesus was quite possibly the Messiah.

I just realized how bigoted I really am when it comes to those I would prefer to be preached to by......running a bunch of scenarios in my mind it seems that race, sex, sexual orientation, age and maybe some categories I haven't even thought of may have an influence about the credibility I would give a speaker whom I would be listening to for the first time. I am pretty sure though that I would weigh the content of their speech above all of that once they were done speaking

"Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed" (Isaiah 53:4&5). Dan this is the very same twisted perversion of love that both Pete. myself and others object to. The idea that Jesus had to basically commit suicide to save us from his vain, jealous, angry, vengeful, insecure Father who is incapable of forgiving even the smallest of offences. Not only that, look at the cruelty of the punishment doled out against humanity and all other living things on the planet for the first offence of God's naive children who knew not what good and evil were and had never seen death until they disobeyed the first time. I hate to imagine what the punishment would be for taking the godly chariot out and drinking too much ambrosia and wrecking it while fondling a cherub.

Fantastic Post Pete!!!! Yea it was also great when we believed in the Easter Bunny and Santa and wore diapers and had no responsibilities whatsoever and other people fed us and bathed and nurtured us, but this thing happens to most of us where we mature and sooner or later we become the ones responsible for loving and nurturing others and as we do eventually grow ever so slowly in knowledge and wisdom we shed those old ways and Myths and become mature Loving Nurturing individuals. I know the feeling well of which Pete feels of how nice and secure it once felt to believe as Dan does only to discover that those beliefs were in error. A myth designed and based in fear to help me mature to a point where I could grow and behave in a manner in harmony with my fellow sentient beings in my culture, just like the stories of the boogie man in the closet that would harm me if I did not listen to my parents, which when my level of sophistication grew that myth was soon discarded as well. It seems to me that the path back to the loving source from which we all sprang should be as Pete stated one of Love. The paths laced with sin, death and fear just keep one wondering around in circles seeing separate paths and boogie men everywhere. Finding the straight and narrow path filled with love seems quite the dilemma for the ego which is accustomed to seeing separation and danger everywhere. As infants our parents love us because they see us as an extension of themselves. Good parents don't see their kids as little parasitic packages constantly devouring their resources and creating waste matter, not good for much. They feel the Unity and Love and potential within each of these little packages. Our belief systems should do the same. Nurture and Teach others of their potential and how to overcome certain human tendencies and behaviors which are deemed negative by society (and why they are deemd negative) , not badger and torment them with stories of hell fire, punishment condemnation.

What my Christian friends above seem to over look is that we are sinners because that heritage is passed down to us through the actions of ONE MAN according to the Bible. Death entered the world through Sin if one believes the Bible. If God had not cursed Adam and Even and the fruit of their hands then things would be quite different.

I think they all include the fall of man starting with Adam and Eve though and the curse that was inflicted upon those naive beings by their loving God.

Every time I think of Job or your Son Joe I see how much agony you are going through and think how tough it must have been for Job as yourself. I'm sure even if you could have 7 more sons they could still not replace the one you loved so dearly and lost. When I think of all the horrendous acts people who have their minds twisted by fear enact on the innoncent of our planet and how God just sits there and watches and does nothing when he alllegedlly knows when even a sparrow hits the ground and yet we are told that he will send she bears to rend over 40 kids to pieces for calling a bald headed man bald headed it just makes me shake my head. No God's ways are not my ways and if the insecure, vain, angry, jealous entity portaryed in the Bible is a ture representation of God then I am very glad that my ways aren't his. What loving parent would ever allow their child to suffer by allowing everything and everyone they loved and cherished to suffer and die around them. That is just siick whether it is being done by a human Soiopathic killer or a God. Like the claims of the One Catholic Cleric recently who stated that the man whom the Pope allegedly casts 4 demons out of is being made to suffer because of Mexican abortion laws. The God I know is one of love and compassion which exceeds the limits of human understanding. He gave us free will and created the perfect laws of nature and does not interfere in the events of our Universe. To interefere would be to directly oppose someones free will.

Isn't that the whole basis of Christianity though. God made the whole world suffer for the actions of two individuals. All the suffering of every generation past, present and future because of the actions of two people and somehow people think that this Christian God is a just God. It friggin amazes me. It is like I stole a cookie fom Dan and he justly rewards me by making all my future generations suffer terribly because of my theft and people applaud him for his justness. FRIGGIN AMAZING!!

Raincloud what disenchanted you with Christianity the first time you sought elsewhere for truth. Has that thing changed or merely your perception of it changed? Some may view your return as the prodigal child returning home, while others may see it as the dog returning to its vomit. I guess the important thing is you feel happy and secure with the choices you have made. I hope you find that which you are seeking and that your choice brings you mucho grande peace, love, health and happiness.

It seems as if once again, if one believes that Isaiah 45:5-7 is the word of God, (I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster;I, the Lord, do all these things.), he was busy killing people and children in Oklahoma yet again. How does one pray if one lives in Oklahoma which happens to sit in both the Bible Belt and Tornado Alley? Does one pray "god's will be done" knowing that each time the alarms sound your house and family may be his next targeted sight. What kind of heartfelt prayers are being offered at the funeral services of these children and other deceased family members to the Entity that is responsible for their deaths. Surely being located in the Bible belt prayers arise fast and furious when the alarms sound or the funnel cloud is seen touching down. How many times when more then 2 or 3 family members have huddled together praying in the name of Jesus have their prayers gone unanswered. I think it is easy to understand that God no more controls the weather then he does the actions of any of us. Is he responsible for the weather and how it behaves is another question?

I was looking for information on the medical situation of the man whom the Pope prayed over the day in that alleged exorcism video and found this article I thought some people in this discussion would enjoy, http://www.newsmax.com/EdwardPentin/Pope-Excorcism-Possessed-Angel/2013/05/29/id/506975 And in another link I can't believe that anyone still thinks God works in this manner. Reminds me of Westboro Baptist Church mentality. “He is really a soul of God, which the Lord is using to criticize Mexico for legalizing abortion,” Father Amorth told Catholic News Agency. http://www.examiner.com/article/experienced-vatican-exorcist-says-pope-cast-out-demon-from-man-by-simple-prayer

I know quite a few of my friends here believe in Demons and that humans can be possessed by them. I myself do not believe that possession by an outside entity is possible, yet I will say I believe it is a decent plausibility that some malevolent entities may dwell in the vast electromagnetic spectrum that is invisible to the human eye but unable to oppose the free will of men by possessing them. Science and medicine have diagnosed quite a few of the medical conditions that once were thought to be demon possession by the ignorant such as epilepsy as an example. My perspective on quite a few other cases may be simple multiple personality disorders. If there are multiple parallel universes, with multiple copies of ourselves out there, some human minds may be wired to pick up energies and frequencies from these other selves and change focus from time to time. Like a radio that is able to pick up a multitude of signals, but usually only focuses on one, our minds may sometimes pick up interference and play multiple channels at once. People with multiple personality disorder may simply have a different wired receiver (their brain) then the rest of. Some of these personalities who may be aware of the condition may be deviant and malicious and come through as demons just for the fun of it. Head spinning, pea soup spitting, cross humping bona fide demons I find very improbable.

But there was no exorcism and the Papacy even denies such. The Pope greeted the man in the manner perceived in the video and the ill person responded the way he did. I have seen people with cerebral palsy and other maladies behave in a similar manner when strangers interact with them. The person who reported that 4 demons were cast out wanted to see four demons cast out and reported such.

BrDevon do you use sign language in your dreams at all?

When I actually became cognizant and learned about being able to control your dreams at certain stages I spent a great deal of time trying to do so and became good at it. The problem in doing so became clear when I awoke in the mornings I felt as if I had not slept a wink all night and it started to affect my health so I gave up on it completely. I must say though for about the two weeks time I became proficient at controlling them during certain stages of the night I was having the time of my life. No king on earth enjoyed them self more then I did. The highlights I remember most were having fantabulous blondes. brunettes and redheads appear at will and firing missiles at my brother and his friends through the forest as they ran from me. Don't know why but watching those missiles curve around trees and chasing my bro and his friends brought me more enjoyment then all those gorgeous ladies that attended all my needs lol

I myself think that many of my dreams are just that a hodgepodge of subconscious desires and fears playing themself out. Other times some seem as you have stated visions of some future event. I think dreams serve a wide range of purposes and that they can't all be defined and package into some nice little psychologically analyzed box. I am almost certain that I have dreams that have made me aware of some imminent danger to occur in real life and I have had them occur in waking life within a weeks time mostly sooner where they played out instant by instant as dreamed and it has given me the chance to alter the outcome. The one that really stands out is to lone to described to go into detail but the critical moments were me on a Friday nigt going to and leaving the Harbor Inn on my own at the same time as two African Americans. When they saw me walking across the street in the dream they said hey you and pulled out a gun and shot me in the dream. I had the dream on a Thursday night and I swore the next day there was no way I was going to the Harbor Inn that Friday night during the Disco Era. Well sure enough my horny young self convinced myself it was only a stupid dream so I walked the apporximate 4 miles to the Inn to drink and have fun with my friends that Friday night. As luck had it I decided to leave a bit early by myself and sure enough across the steet there were the two African Americans guys I had dreamed of dressed exactly as I had seen them and wlaking to the exact group of cars I had seen them walking to in the dream. Before they could even say a word my fast little white behind was just a blurr running down the street

Well we both see what we are looking for so before your bubble bursts completely lets place both perceptions on the Universal Plausibility Scale and see what happens.......placing the concept the Pope exorcises 4 demons out of an ill person on the left hand side of the scale......now placing the reaction of the man is merely ......<crash> <boom> <glass breaking> .....now the scale is broke in pieces on the floor