Jonathan H. B. Lobl

I thank you for your kind intentions. Your efforts in this case are futile. Dan doesn't care what Atheists think -- or believe. He is determined to project his own values onto Atheists -- and facts don't matter to him. He wants his understanding of Scripture to be all right -- and those who reject that Scripture to be all wrong. This much has become obvious to me. Such a mind can't be reasoned with. He is impervious to nuance and reason. He sees no perspective but his own. Facts bounce off him like water off a duck. I think what is most telling, is that when Dan has nothing else to say, he accuses the Atheist of hostility. Hatred of God, Scripture, Christianity, etc. All projection. Your efforts are kind. They will fail.

Uh-huh. I will not be provoked.

The pious see us, through the distorting lens of their own faith. They don't see us at all. Only their own reflection.

I think that we are in the same church. Maybe not the same pew, but the same church. It takes more than not dying, to be fully alive. Of course, there is something greater than Humanity. We are part of Nature. We are part of the Earth. We are part of the Cosmos. If a star filled night doesn't trigger a sense of wonder -- there's something dead inside. 🙂

You expect Atheists to conform to your beliefs. Belief changes nothing. Not even your belief. Atheists don't conform to your beliefs about Atheism. When you are ready to listen, instead of pronounce judgment, you might learn something.

Indeed, yes. What Einstein called "spooky action at a distance." The discoveries are just starting. The Universe is stranger than we ever imagined. These are exciting times. Wait until the real AI gets here. 🙂

Now that my basic thinking is on the table; that leaves the labels. We have no objective, verifiable facts about God. None at all. Nothing. Faith does not make it so. Neither does hope or wishing. So: I am Agnostic, because we have no objective, verifiable facts about God. At some point in the future, this may change. When it does, I'm willing to reconsider. In the meantime, nothing. I am Atheist, because we have no objective, verifiable facts about God. I find it unreasonable, to have faith in the existence of something -- when we have no facts about it. Further, if we did have proof that a god existed -- we still would have no proof that THE GOD existed. At best, proof of "a god" would be a wishy washy Deism. This is the God of Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine. Believers insist on making Atheism more than it is. Atheism is not a belief system, philosophy of morals and ethics -- or any other fool thing they insist on. Atheism is one thing only. A conclusion about the existence of God; based on lack of evidence to the contrary. No faith is involved. It is the default position based on no evidence at all. Arguments about Evolution and Cosmology are irrelevant. I do get tired of the mindless assertions: "Atheists believe in nothing." "It takes too much faith to be an Atheist." Etc. If evidence for THE God ever shows up -- I am willing to reconsider. Scripture is not evidence. That leave Apatheism. We have no objective, verifiable facts about God. None at all. Nothing. Speculation on this point, is then futile and useless. If other people choose to believe without evidence -- that is not my issue. When I use the Agnostic label, I get the Agnostic arguments. Mostly philosophy about the limits of knowledge -- and irrelevant challenges to make up my mind. When I use the Atheist label, I'm confronted by meaningless metaphysical arguments. All meaningless. I went to the Apatheist label, because I'm tired of stupid arguments. My success has been limited. Even this has gotten stupid arguments, about hopelessness. Well, the world is not yet perfect. Apatheism it is -- until I find something better.

Your point is taken. The new findings in physics, where nothing is more complicated than we thought -- and particles flash in and out of existence. It's fascinating and I won't pretend to understand it. When the Natural Order is this strange; I can do without the Supernatural. The Natural is weird enough. 🙂 Have you been following news about the Higgs Field? Wild stuff.

I think I understand your basic point. Matter changes form. Water can show up as vapor, liquid or ice. Energy also changes form. I don't think this is relevant. As commonly understood; soul is the vessel, by which the individual continues to exist after death. If the soul is -- speaking poeticly -- a drop of water that merges with the ocean -- I don't find this meaningful. Again, life is short. Soon enough, we will know -- or not. I am not a materialist. I'm prepared to change my views, pending further information. In the meantime, in a total lack of objective, verifiable information -- I don't think it is important. I live a life of pragmatics. Again, this is how I think about God. Pending further information, I don't think it's important. Because faith is nothing but a strong opinion; independent of facts. I will quibble with you on one point. It is flesh that dies. Matter changes. Like energy. 🙂

Thank you. We have no objective, verifiable facts, about souls. I did try to apply reason. What is important, at least to me, is that wanting and not wanting souls, to be real, are equally irrelevant. Either souls are, or are not. In like manner, belief changes nothing. Belief, non-belief and disbelief, are equally irrelevant. My views on God are similar. For the same reasons.

What do we get from old religious manuscripts? Old assertions. As reliable then, as the internet is now.

The horse is dead.

Yes. All true.

1. Are you five? Grow up. 2. Still reworking history.

You have such a wonderful consistency. First, a personal attack. Then you kindly inform me of the true meaning of Apatheism. When you are ready to pay attention and listen, without putting your spin on everything, we can reopen the topic. I will know that you are ready -- when you drop the "Atheists believe in nothing" line. Until then, I have no reason to continue.

Orthodox Jews go straight to the Hebrew text, because they don't trust any translation. This is taking text seriously.

I expect our Pagan brethren already know the score. Of course, there's also death for gathering sticks on the Sabbath; death for eating pork or shrimp; death for wearing a garment of diverse fabrics; death for being a non-virgin female on her wedding night; death for being gay -- there are others that I can't think of at the moment. So many ways to earn the death penalty. You know. Because God is Love. Of course, people are still murdered because they were accused of being witches, whether they are or not. And the pious seem to have little issue with murdering gay people. Because, you know. Christian Love. Or telling Atheists that they have no morals; that they are abominable; that they have no love in them and believe in nothing -- that they have rejected truth -- that they are going to Hell for all eternity -- because, you know -- nonjudgmental.

Well, if you trace Christianity back to a historic Jesus -- who would have been speaking Aramaic ....... We have already established, that God was not concerned with mistake free translations. Only mistake free originals. Has anybody seen the original Gospels, in Aramaic?

Along the way, I've read Jewish apologetics where the word was "poisoner". For the countless innocents, who were destroyed by witch hunts -- what mattered was the translation in common usage. It's a shame that God couldn't be bothered, to take an interest in the translations. You know. Trivial tasks. Beneath Devin concern. The mediocre stuff, best left to Human translators. Why are we even putting this into past tense? In modern day Nigeria and Uganda, they are still hunting innocents -- who are being accused of being witches. Yea, God. The original Hebrew is for academics to argue over. The slaughter of innocents continues. By translation.

Spotty. The concepts continue to elude you. It all filters through your pious lens. You have the words. Not the understanding.

Lying was never a problem for Christian propagandists. Then, or now. Stealing the Solstice -- propagating the Gospels -- miracle stories -- witnessing -- Threats of Damnation -- apolologetics on this board....... The details change. Never the lies. And such a variety of lies. Error never creeps into Scripture -- Christians are more happy than Atheists -- - "Atheists believe in nothing" -- Where do we even start? My personal favorite: "You need to get saved!".

Of course. Just a bit of carelessness -- a poor choice of words -- from the perfect Author. The Author who knows the future in perfect detail and knows -- in perfect detail -- what death and mayhem will result. Lets not forget -- the All Loving perfect One, who cares about justice.

The psychology behind the Winter Solstice is not deep. It's cold, dark and depressing. So people light the fires, sing the songs and party. Of course, the new religion tried to steal it.