Jonathan H. B. Lobl

An addendum: If God had actually existed, and wanted to remove all evil humans from existence, there were options. A disease. We have seen for our selves how quickly a virus can kill millions. All evil people could have simply and quickly fallen down dead. The vultures could have cleaned up the mess and that would have been that. The evil people could simply have blinked out of existence. These options and others would have been no problem for the All Powerful. What does God do? You read the story. It fails, even as fiction.

That is why it's called Faith instead of Facts. When we have Facts, we don't need Faith. A god which can not be demonstrated to exist, is irrelevant and meaningless. Even if that god actually exists, it still doesn't matter. It follows that arguing about a god's actual existence, is both futile and pointless. We have no objective, verifiable facts or information about any god. None at all. Nothing. An argument is not evidence. An argument is -- an argument. Which takes us to -- So what?

For the sake of argument, let's pretend that the great flood actually happened. It rained and it rained and all the oceans of the world overflowed -- and soaked all the land of the world. All land every where was soaked in salt water. You know what happens when you soak land in salt water? Nothing will grow there. The waters receded. (To where?) All animals everywhere had drowned. All plant life everywhere had drowned. Good by oxygen carbon dioxide cycle. The Earth died. We can pretend that the air was breathable. Not that it would be. Imagine the stench. Dead animals bloating in the Sun. All vegetation rotting. An endless dead bog. All the plant eaters died for lack of plants. All the meat eaters died for lack of prey. Well, there were animals on the Ark. A losing proposition. What does Noah do when the Ark comes to rest? An animal sacrifice. God does love the smell of burnt flesh. We haven't even talked about life on the Ark. Every day, actual tons of poop. Huge, unthinkable quantities of piss. Think of the storage for all that food and water. Do you know how much meat it takes to keep one lion alive? How much water it takes to keep one elephant alive? All the animals needed supplies. And only one window on the boat. Think of the methane build up. How did all the animals get back to their suitable habitats? Habitats which were destroyed. Genetic diversity was also gone. Which part of this whole silly story are we to take seriously? For even a moment? It gets worse. In a few chapters we get -- the Tower of Babel. World population recovered that quickly? Of course, if we are talking about real people, India and China have records going back 10,000 years. Also Egypt. No mention of the flood. Like it never happened.

Noah's flood. Where do we even start?

Truly, I get it. Atheist extremists are as hard to endure, as any other variety of extremist. I would not want them as neighbors. Then again, I think this is excellent promotional material for Apatheism. Look at the opposition. I also found a lot of Christian material, which is deeply anti Apatheism. This is understandable. Apatheism is a problem for people, who have a pushy, evangelical perspective. It's hard to argue with -- I don't care, leave me alone. There is no opening for an argument. An Atheist might be willing to argue belief vs. non-belief. They might tell an Agnostic, that they have the answers. It's hard to argue with -- So what. It doesn't matter. Let me know if you want to see it. Otherwise, I won't bother.

You're taking us into history. Interpretation becomes difficult. Spinoza was the father of modern Pantheism. A religious philosophy. God as Nature. God as the Universe. Spinoza cared a great deal. He was excommunicated by his Jewish community. It broke his spirit. He died shortly thereafter. We can argue the relevance of Pantheism. I'm not at all clear that it's the same as not caring. Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine followed Deism. Another religious philosophy. A creator God who does not answer prayer, guide events or grant revelation. Paine wrote, The Age of Reason. A foundation of Deism. Jefferson took a blade to the Bible -- literally, a blade -- and cut out the supernatural parts associated with Jesus. We can argue the relevance of Deism. I'm not at all clear that it's the same as not caring. I'm puzzled by your inclusion of Newton on this list. He was as renowned for his theology, as his greatness in math and science. A man of great piety. I think we also need to be cautious, when speaking of the early Catholic astronomers. Yes, they came into conflict with their church. That does not mean that they were conflicted about God.

It was a rhetorical device. Never mind.

Bob is a fictional character. I made him up to help with the argument. I did not plan Bob, with this discussion in mind. I don't have such foresight. It simply worked out. If you really do regard Jesus, the same way I regard Bob -- then welcome to Atheism. Sorry. It was a cheap shot. I couldn't resist.

Atheists Abusing Apatheism

I'll take this one. If my good friend Bob, tells me that milk gives him the runs -- I'll take his word for it. The evidence would be easy to provide. I don't need such evidence. His word is good enough. If Bob wants to change my vote in the next election -- at minimum, I expect a reasoned argument. If Bob wants to change my religious beliefs -- I need compelling evidence. The more that is at stake -- the more extreme the assertion -- the stronger the evidence needs to be. On that note, Dan. Merry Christmas. May it bring you comfort, joy and all good things. Jonathan

Just so. I tend to regard religion as an intoxicant. Most people drink responsibly and in moderation. I have no problems with that. Much joy may it bring them. Other people are sloppy drunks. I hate being around drunkards. Or the pushy pious. For much the same reason. They stink up the place.