Jonathan H. B. Lobl

Thank you. I was not always the class act that I am now. As they say in the old country -- "Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement." While I'm waxing philosophic, I have a thought for you, that a Satanic Humanist might enjoy. "Be grateful for your enemies. They will show you truths about yourself, that your friends never would."

I think I can clarify things here -- at the risk of my putting words into Damnthing's mouth. It is not the pendant which Damnthing is reacting too. It is the attitude behind the pendant, which in effect is weaponizing the pendant. We are talking about Mr. Lindell's use of his cross pendant. Consider a parallel example. President Trump has a group of peaceful protesters gassed by the military. Why? For a photo op. So that he can hold up a Bible in front of a church. The Bible itself is not an issue here. It is only being used as a prop. In like manner, the church is being used as a prop. It is President Trump's attitude that people found disturbing. He has weaponized both the Bible and the church. We don't need rules about who can hold up a Bible. We don't need rules about being photographed, with a church in the background. Yet in this example, both Bible and church were used for "virtue signaling". Using this example, we can see that asking questions about holding up other books -- Koran, Torah scroll, Book of Mormon, etc. -- has nothing at all to do with the original concern that Damnthing was expressing -- which is about using religious things for cultural or political aggression. I hope that helps. If I got it all wrong, I apologize.

No new rules. The world doesn't need a new Orthodoxy.

I understand your point. You were clear. I'm only saying that there are other people who wear the cross, visibly, with diverse reasons.

I think this video is an interesting treatment. What is the distinction between Deism and Atheism? Deism has no revelation; no scriptures; no prayer; No involvement from or with God. God sets the Universe into motion, then wanders off. It's practical Atheism without the dreaded Atheist word. Does it matter if God has no involvement -- or no existence? I don't think so. What is the distinction between Pantheism and Atheism? Speaking simply, Pantheism holds that God is everything and everything is God. Speaking simply, Atheism is that there is no reason to take the God idea seriously. That God is nothing. Is there any real distinction between God is everything -- and God is nothing? No. Not really. At least, none that matters. Bottom line? To my understanding, these labels are dishonest versions of Atheism. That is, Atheism with a pretense of belief.

From an Atheist Perspective. Types of religious faith: Theism, Deism, Pantheism, etc. No. There is no reference to Polytheism.

Not always. A lot of people, who are not religious in anyway, will wear a cross. Some see it as a fashion accessory. For instance -- Madonna. Some wear it as a "good luck" thing. Gang people sometimes wear the cross, to show their affiliation -- along with seemingly religious tattoos. The cross also seems to be a fashion statement in modern, Atheist Japan. It's a strange world. So many wear the cross for nonreligious reasons. I can't pretend any of it makes sense to me. Of course, there are ostensibly religious people, who also wear the cross. Some really huge crosses. The kind that we can refer to as BFC. I also don't get that mentality. I also have some friends, who are sincerely religious, who wear the cross because it is deeply meaningful to them. There are some people like that. As you noted, there are all the pricks, who engage in virtue signaling.

That would be a great blessing. I do mean blessing.

We have consensus. Arguing with Dan is bad for the board.

I know. I was trying to draw in the Pagan membership. It didn't work. I think I can see why. Much of the activity on the board is arguing with Dan. Even I lost interest, and I was doing a lot of it.

Most of the threads there were started by me. I was trying to start conversations. They failed.

It's nice not to have to go out in harsh weather. I miss being around people.

On reflection, this is not Theism. It's Deism.

I think I'm part of the problem that you're talking about. When ever you like, I'm ready for a nuanced discussion of the different ideas about the gods -- small G. I can also discuss Pantheism. Yes. They are very different ideas. When I argue with Dan -- or someone like him -- subtleties and nuance get lost. When the person I'm arguing with is incapable of distinctions -- I can't make them. When I'm in such an argument and I try making distinctions -- I sound like a bloodless lawyer. I understand why the Pagans like you get disgusted and walk out. It's the situation. I really don't know what to do about it. If I can persuade you to stick around, I think we can have some good talks.

I have different responses for that. The situation is different in Europe. Look at what's happening in France and England. Muslims in America are a small minority now. The demographics are shifting. Islam is a major power on the world stage. There is no hiding from the rest of the world. Not just the Middle East. Africa and Asia. The Middle East. Much of what is happening in the world, is a cold war between Sunni Saudi Arabia and Shia Iran -- and their proxies. It's complicated. Israel is part of what's going on -- and American Evangelicals are playing their own games. Relations between Pakistan and India are complicated and hot. Pakistan hid Osama Bin Laden after 9/11.

It's good to see you again. Please, come by more often. The board needs your perspective. As you say, Monotheism is the affliction that keeps on giving.

Agnostic Christians? What does that mean?

Only Christians? It can't be very popular with Muslims.

That might be true, if religion were rational. We both know better than that. There are means of alleged knowledge, by which one can "know" a god. Really, any means of enhanced perception. It need not be "revelation" as such. There are various altered states and means to induce them. There is also the succubus. There is more than one way to know a god. Sometimes, in the Biblical sense of the word. The knowledg/gnosis, does not need to be authentic. Only believed as such.

There is also the compartmentalized mind. The Jew who knows full well that the Exodus never happened, but cheerfully takes part in a Passover Seder. Or a Christian who does not believe in the Resurrection, but really enjoys Easter.

An Agnostic Theist is someone who doesn't know that a god exists -- while believing that a god exists. To my understanding, this is about hope. Someone who wants to believe. For instance A Jew who wants God to be real, while having doubts. A Christian who wants salvation through Christ, but has doubts. A Muslim who wants to believe, but has doubts. A Hindu who wants to believe, but has doubts. Sometimes, people want to believe what they know isn't true. They are honest that they don't know -- but they hope it is so. Isn't that what religion is about? Belief without knowing? So, no. Not a contradiction. Hope is not faith or knowing. Not an oxymoron. That would be something like "military justice". If it's military, it's not just. If it's just, it's not military.

Just so. In time, even the stars grow cold. Life is short. Too short to waste it, arguing with the pious.

The Trump Dump? The enflamed sore on the Seat of Government? No. It hasn't changed Dan at all.

Again, this goes to the nature of the fear based content, which is the Evangelical world. The whole thing about being helpless before the righteous angry God. They are afraid and they strive to make the rest of us fearful. Misery really does love company. Here comes the sad part. Dan thinks that we don't understand him -- or his God. No. We do understand Dan. As for his God..... If there is one thing sadder than an adult man with an invisible friend -- It's an adult man who is afraid of that invisible friend. Sadder still, is when he expects me to be afraid of his invisible friend. Am I really expected to do the Atheist thing, and argue about whether or not that friend exists? I think in his many movies, the great W. C. Fields said it best. "Go away boy. Ya bother me." Enough is enough. It's time to put away childish things, and be a man. An adult man. I am an Apatheist. It's good to be free of all that silly baggage. We have to grow up sometime. Well, we can be religious. It's an other way to go. Dan's way. All that faith. All that belief.

It is the nature of fear based content. You know all the horrible things that you used to believe. Well, Dan is still stuck with those beliefs. How awful for him. Evangelical faith is an affliction. It's not your problem. Also, not mine. When I was a Home Health Aide, I made an astonishing discovery. My clients who were very religious, were afraid of death. I don't want to say that my secular patients wanted to die. They didn't. But they were able to come to terms with their mortality. It was the religious clients who were afraid to die. It's counter intuitive. It goes against the religious narrative. But there we are.