Jonathan H. B. Lobl

In America, we have "freedom of speech". Let us be clear. There are limits. We can't yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater. Still, we can say what we want. This does not place anybody under obligation to listen or pay attention. We can ignore Dan. No response is required. We can hear him. There is no obligation to stop and listen. Much like the nutter street preacher. You're the one with a brain. Don't get banned.

Dan is always ready to define Atheism. We are the people who believe in nothing. Dan is always ready to define Agnosticism. We are the people who know nothing. Dan takes particular joy in defining Apatheism. We are the people who care about nothing. Since Dan takes so much pleasure in defining my world view -- it is only fair that I define his. Evangelical Christianity is a fear based death cult. I say this, with the same concern for Dan's feelings; that Dan has for my concerns. None at all. Dan gets to proclaim what is true, and what is false, because he is the Christian. Because God. I'm calling bull crap on all of it. Because the days of deferential kissing Christian ass are over. And no. I don't have to argue with Dan. I have nothing to prove. Because even the question of God's existence is meaningless and irrelevant. Hmmm. Did I say that out loud? Yes. I did.

I have an old bit of folk wisdom for you. "Never try to teach a pig to sing. The attempt is doomed to fail, and it annoys the pig."

Good. You're feeling better.

I understand. Dan's comments are like a mosquito bite. It's trivial but it itches. When you have to vent, talk to me.

I'm confident that we can go with the obvious. A self righteous servant of God. Only the flavor is in doubt.

Not believing in God, is not the same as believing in nothing. Not caring about God, is not the same as caring about nothing. These distinctions don't require genius. It seems they do exceed your capacity.

No, Dan. It's you. Even now, you misrepresent Atheism. Since you are incapable of learning, I'll stop here.

Dan, you have put me into the unhappy position of having to agree with you. You are not the problem. The problem is Monotheism. Sadly, your understanding of Monotheism is spot on. The God of Monotheism -- as portrayed in the Bible -- is not Interfaith. Neither is he a liberal. I went to Biblegateway.com and did a simple word search on "every knee". These are the relevant passages that came up. Isaiah 45:23 By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations Romans 14:11 It is written: “‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.’” In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations Philippians 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations In the end, the Bible is what it is. Not what I want it to be. Not even what you want it to be. It is an awful book, that does not reflect my values. The difference is orientation. I see hateful mythology. You see actual truth and goodness. It doesn't help anything, to lie about what the Bible actually says, or what the Human authors intended. The truth is the truth. I will not pretend.

A lot of the old Paganism is lurking. Just under the surface. Like an iceberg. Then again, come Valentine's Day, what do we have? Out in the open, hiding in plain sight? Cupid, with his arrows. The old gods never quite go away.

Yes.

There is a lot more to Christmas than theology. More in fact than Christmas. It goes back to the Winter Solstice. It's cold and dark and depressing. So what do people do? What they have always done at Solstice. They party. They light the fires, sing the songs, eat the food and drink. There are cultural over lays. A time to celebrate children. Think about. While modern Christians are doing their thing, around evergreen trees and yule logs (all Pagan) -- Jews are lighting the candles and singing. Easter goes way back. It's a celebration of Spring, new life and renewal. It's a lot older than Christianity. Eggs have always represented new life. Long before they were Easter Eggs. Rabbits have been a fertility symbol for ever. Long before they were chocolate. I almost forgot. What do you call a Jewish Atheist? Jewish.

A lot of Jews are Atheists. They understand their Jewishness as an ethnicity or culture. It makes for some good humor. There is no God and we are his people. There is only one God, and we don't believe in him. Jews who understand full well that the Exodus never happened, still participate in Passover Seders. There are plenty of Jewish Atheists who fast on Yom Kippur. It's a cultural thing. You understand. There are plenty of people who have no use for Christianity. But they get all sentimental and misty eyed at Christmas and Easter.

An addendum: Back in the day, I was taking a class on "drug awareness" for the Public School teacher. It was an eye opener. I had to attend an open AA meeting as part of the class. God is a drug. AA is about substituting one drug for another.

I was never Christian. My background is Jewish. When I was a college student, I had a whole circle of Hasidic friends. I learned to appreciate the religious mind for what it is. They are not stupid. They're crazy. There is a difference.

It's my sense of humor. The Armor of God is a Bible reference. Dan will understand.

Yes. Just so. I can't imagine anything ever changing your mind. About anything. You have encased your mind with the armor of God. You are a true believer. That is why I have stopped arguing with you. It is pointless and futile to continue.

In the follies of my youth, I collected some actual wisdom. "Be grateful for your enemies. They will show you truths about yourself, that your friends never would."

When I was new to this board, I self identified as a Pantheist. After chatting with Dan for a few years, I discovered that this was a lie. I had become an Atheist. In that capacity, I continued chatting with Dan. In time, I discovered that I had become an Apatheist. Dan is not responsible for my development. I think it would have happened anyway. He did speed my development along. As a simple Atheist, I still cared whether or not God might exist. I didn't believe, but I still cared. Not any more. Dan actually helped me see that it didn't matter. For this, I actually owe Dan a debt of gratitude. Beyond love. Beyond hate. There is not giving a crap. It's good to be free of all that baggage. Really, quite liberating.

I have an observation. Dan does more to promote Atheism, than all the Atheists on this board combined. In the end, it's the results that matter.

I hate defending Dan. In fairness, I expect that Dan really does believe it. I've wasted more time arguing with Dan than you have. He's sincere.

This much is true. When we have facts, we don't need faith. You think this goes against free will? I suppose it does damage the ability to believe in nonsense. That is a good thing.

The story of Jesus is worse than that. It's inconsistent. Consider. Everywhere that Jesus went, there were great huge crowds. Following. Pressing in. Crowding. Following. Everywhere, great huge crowds, following and pushing to get close. That's why the Romans had to pay Judas, simply to point Jesus out to them. They didn't know who he was. These Gospel accounts are supposed to be evidence? Silly stories that contradict each other? That fly in the face of actual history? Of course, we can believe that Jerusalem was over run by zombies. Well, I can't. It's too silly. My lack of belief is because I did read the Book.

The concept of evidence continues to elude you. You do not understand my criteria. Again, you are mistaken.

Missed the point? Your bald assertions count for nothing. I have a quotation concerning the Bible. "The Bible is equal parts history, science and pizza." In the meantime, I will repeat myself. A god which can not be demonstrated to exist, is irrelevant and meaningless. Even if that god actually exists -- so what? Christian doctrine is not a demonstration of anything. Certainly, not history or fact. I have zero interest in debating your fact free faith. I'm done with arguing with your beliefs. "If you can't show it, then you don't know it." (Aaron Ra) When you have empirical evidence. Objective, verifiable facts, we can resume. Until then, I will continue to regard even the question of God's existence, to be pointless and futile and meaningless.