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2 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

Funny... my bachelor's thesis was actually on the political philosophy of Star trek (and the conclusion wasn't pretty)...

 

 

 

The video analysis that I posted came from a Christian.  As such, the Christian saw what he wanted to see in this episode.

 

The episode itself, titled "Bread and Circus" is presented as a cultural parallel to Earth history.  As such, there are no religious consequences.  It's only a cultural parallel.  For the moment, we can overlook the gross, outlandish, improbabilities of this happening.

 

For the sake of argument, let us suppose that this Children of the Son cult is exactly what the cult believes it to be.  They are following the Son of God.  That means that this world had it's own, independent Fall from Grace.  It means that a Christ -- the Christ? -- came to redeem them.

 

What does that mean?  It means that the Jesus of Earth came to save the inhabitants of Earth and no place else.  It means that each world has it's own path of redemption.  That's an interesting vision.  Did Christ manifest separately for each world?  A different incarnation for Humans, Vulcans, Klingons, Bajorans, etc.?

 

As a cultural parallel, it is only flawed science fiction.  Why, for instance, are they speaking 20th Century Earth English, instead of Latin or Italian?  As Christian theology, they have started down a messy road with consequences.

 

Back to the intent of the author of the video analysis of Bread and Circus.  This is supposed to demonstrate that the United Federation of Planets -- Star Fleet in particular -- are Christian.  No.  It does not.

 

In the final scene, Uhura, Kirk and Spock are mouthing pious platitudes, about the philosophy of Love and all men are brothers.  In so doing, they display their ignorance of Christianity.  No.  They are not Christians in anything more than a loose cultural sense.  The religion of Christianity, as it exists in this future, has been defanged.

 

:whist:

 

 

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On 6/27/2021 at 3:06 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

The video analysis that I posted came from a Christian.  As such, the Christian saw what he wanted to see in this episode. [...]

 

Doesn't that (kind of bias) apply to all human analysis (more or less)...?

 

:coffee:

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34 minutes ago, RevBogovac said:

 

Doesn't that (kind of bias) apply to all human analysis (more or less)...?

 

:coffee:

 

 

Some bias is understandable.  Even to be expected.  This speaker took his bias way past reasonable.

 

The speaker made a great deal out of Uhura's horrified reaction at seeing one gladiator kill another.  The speaker made an ugly assumption.  Uhura reacted that way because of Christianity.  Not because she's a good person.  Or a kind person.  Because of Christianity.  This kind of bias -- we've seen it on this board -- insists that the "Christian Virtues" are exclusive to Christians.  That Humanists, Atheists, Agnostics, etc. can't possibly have that kind of compassion.

 

This is my bias.  I find that sort of thing to be deeply offensive and bigoted against secular people.

 

Have a caution.  Denial of the humanity of secular people, is a prelude to denial of rights and violence.  That is how things work in this world.  Before any group is in actual danger, they are first dehumanized and demonized.

You were in the remnants of Yugoslavia.  You have seen for yourself what this kind of thing leads to.

 

:whist:

 

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Some bias is understandable.  Even to be expected.  This speaker took his bias way past reasonable.

 

The speaker made a great deal out of Uhura's horrified reaction at seeing one gladiator kill another.  The speaker made an ugly assumption.  Uhura reacted that way because of Christianity.  Not because she's a good person.  Or a kind person.  Because of Christianity.  This kind of bias -- we've seen it on this board -- insists that the "Christian Virtues" are exclusive to Christians.  That Humanists, Atheists, Agnostics, etc. can't possibly have that kind of compassion.

 

This is my bias.  I find that sort of thing to be deeply offensive and bigoted against secular people.

 

Have a caution.  Denial of the humanity of secular people, is a prelude to denial of rights and violence.  That is how things work in this world.  Before any group is in actual danger, they are first dehumanized and demonized.

You were in the remnants of Yugoslavia.  You have seen for yourself what this kind of thing leads to.

 

:whist:

 

Thank you for making that point. We more or less just summarised my Bachelor' thesis' conclusion...

 

:coffee:

 

PS and - of course - I also acknowledged my own personal biasses...

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23 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

Thank you for making that point. We more or less just summarised my Bachelor' thesis' conclusion...

 

:coffee:

 

PS and - of course - I also acknowledged my own personal biasses...

 

 

This particular bigotry is common.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Having seen how believers behaved under the Trump.regime I do not believe they have any right to question atheist 's moral compass. I do not need a bronze age book to tell me somethings are wrong. You do not have to believe in a god to value the life of another and respect their personal rights as human beings. Most atheists know this. Believers it seems need to be told this from a bronze age book. I question any believer who needs to be told to respect others rather than know this from their own heart.

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2 hours ago, Pete said:

Having seen how believers behaved under the Trump.regime I do not believe they have any right to question atheist 's moral compass. I do not need a bronze age book to tell me somethings are wrong. You do not have to believe in a god to value the life of another and respect their personal rights as human beings. Most atheists know this. Believers it seems need to be told this from a bronze age book. I question any believer who needs to be told to respect others rather than know this from their own heart.

 

When faith is valued and facts are disdained, this is what happens.  Fact free bigotry.  A courageous disregard for reality.

 

 

 

 

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On 7/1/2021 at 9:17 PM, Pete said:

Having seen how believers behaved under the Trump.regime I do not believe they have any right to question atheist 's moral compass. I do not need a bronze age book to tell me somethings are wrong. You do not have to believe in a god to value the life of another and respect their personal rights as human beings. Most atheists know this. Believers it seems need to be told this from a bronze age book. I question any believer who needs to be told to respect others rather than know this from their own heart.

 

 

Religion is an odd fire.  I think it best to let it burn itself out.  Raging against it only seems to feed the flame.

 

:mellow:

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 7/3/2021 at 5:18 AM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

Religion is an odd fire.  I think it best to let it burn itself out.  Raging against it only seems to feed the flame.

 

:mellow:

There are three ways to stop a fire. 1/ deprive it of oxygen. 2/ deprive it of fuel. 3/ lower its temperature. 

Debating highlights the nonsense the religion is founded upon. Even if they are persistent in quoting dogma, the ridiculous nature and lack of foundation of the religion shows through. I guess that is why you have given so many posts to the topic and interesting they are. I note there is no response back to challenge your logic. If they did it again would show up the ridiculousness of having a faith with no logical foundation. Hence you put the fire out.

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9 hours ago, Pete said:

There are three ways to stop a fire. 1/ deprive it of oxygen. 2/ deprive it of fuel. 3/ lower its temperature. 

Debating highlights the nonsense the religion is founded upon. Even if they are persistent in quoting dogma, the ridiculous nature and lack of foundation of the religion shows through. I guess that is why you have given so many posts to the topic and interesting they are. I note there is no response back to challenge your logic. If they did it again would show up the ridiculousness of having a faith with no logical foundation. Hence you put the fire out.

 

 

Unfortunately there are a lot of ignorant people who seem to lack the ability of logical thinking (either by lack of intelligence or by consistent brainwashing) providing enough oxygen and fuel to keep the temperatures high and the flames going...

 

:coffee:

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I have to respond to both of you in a two parter.  "Religion" is such a broad brush.  Too broad.

 

I think we all know what we mean by Monotheism:  Judaism, Christianity and Islam. 

 

  • Without Christianity, Islam would have taken over the world. 
  • Without Islam, Christianity would have taken over the world.
  • Christian vs. Christian holy wars are the stuff of legend.
  • Muslim vs. Muslim holy wars are the stuff of legend.
  • Jewish infighting is also the stuff of legend.  Too much to drag out now.
  • The Temple Mount in Jerusalem is the hottest of hot spots.  Good luck cooling that down.

 

Hinduism/Vedanta defies cataloging.  Has it been good for India?  On balance, no.  It hasn't. 

  • The Bhagavad Gita begins with two Hindu Kingdoms about to go to war with each other.  Krishna, an avatar of Vishnu the Preserver, does not stop the war.  He encourages it.
  • What about modern India?  The Hindu dominionists and their parties are vicious.
  • The caste system continues to damage India.  Even now.
  • One of India's biggest problems, even now, is rape.
  • The Hindu/Pakistan border is one of the great flashpoints of the world.

Polytheism?  A religion with many gods?

  • The Norse Vikings were raiders.
  • Ancient Sparta went to war with ancient Athens.

Buddhism?  When Buddhism/Buddhists are the dominant influence, things are not so peaceful.

  • The history of China.
  • The history of Japan.
  • Modern Burma.

Communism:  We can't over look the bloody history of Communism, which is a godless religion in it's own right.  Communism persecutes the followers of traditional religion, because it can't tolerate competition.  A few oddities are worth mentioning.

  • In China under "Chairman" Mao Tze Tung.  Mao was his own modern day god and his Little Red Book was scripture.  A strange cult.  History repeats.  Now we have President Xi.  AKA Xi Dada.
  • Modern China has it's "House Churches".  The rest are being persecuted.  A major topic too big for here.
  • We must pause to consider the plight of China's Muslims.  The people in concentration camps.  It's odd how the world's Muslims seem to be ignoring this.
  • Modern Russia is in alliance with the Russian Orthodox Church.  I see echoes of Hitler's alliance with the Vatican.
  • The persecution of Falun Gong.  A major topic.

 

That's enough for now.  I need to do some thinking before I continue.          :umbrella:

 

 

  • Stalin:  A Soviet god.  At least, a demi god.
  • North Korea; with it's veneration of the Founder, and his Son, the Dear Leader.  God the Father and God the Son.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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23 hours ago, Pete said:

There are three ways to stop a fire. 1/ deprive it of oxygen. 2/ deprive it of fuel. 3/ lower its temperature. 

Debating highlights the nonsense the religion is founded upon. Even if they are persistent in quoting dogma, the ridiculous nature and lack of foundation of the religion shows through. I guess that is why you have given so many posts to the topic and interesting they are. I note there is no response back to challenge your logic. If they did it again would show up the ridiculousness of having a faith with no logical foundation. Hence you put the fire out.

 

 

Over the years, I have gotten into many arguments with the deeply religious.  In hindsight I can see that they were useless and futile.  I have put out nothing.  To the contrary.  I think I have enflamed passions.  I did so by providing opposition.  Christians love opposition.  It feeds their persecution fantasies.  Standing up for Christ and all that good crap.

 

There is another way to put out a fire.  Wait.  Just wait.  In time, it will run out of fuel and burn itself out.

 

In the Gospels, Christians have the Great Commission.  Orders from the risen Christ to "spread the good news."  As an Apathetic Agnostic, I have no mandate.  I don't know and I don't care.  If I choose to get into arguments that are stupid, useless and futile -- it's on me.  I don't enjoy it and I don't want to do it any more.  The wind has gone out of my sails.  I don't care and I can't be bothered.

 

:umbrella:              :mellow:

 

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

 

Unfortunately there are a lot of ignorant people who seem to lack the ability of logical thinking (either by lack of intelligence or by consistent brainwashing) providing enough oxygen and fuel to keep the temperatures high and the flames going...

 

:coffee:

 

 

 

So true.  When Faith and Belief are all that matter, Critical thinking isn't even a speed bump.

 

:mellow:

 

:umbrella:

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On 6/28/2021 at 11:52 AM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 "Christian Virtues" are exclusive to Christians.  That Humanists, Atheists, Agnostics, etc. can't possibly have that kind of compassion.

 

 

This is my bias.  I find that sort of thing to be deeply offensive and bigoted against secular people.

 

 

 

Atheist and all can have compassion and moral values, but they are based on nothing but what they think, which means that their morals can fluctuate on a whim. Believers have a solid foundation of unchanging morals based in a Truth that eludes nonbelievers. That's the difference.. It has nothing to do with bigotry, but simple biblical absolutes. 

 

Your all searching for answers from a fictional Star Trek episode while simultaneously suggesting that Christians are delusional :)

 

 

14 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

There is another way to put out a fire.  Wait.  Just wait.  In time, it will run out of fuel and burn itself out.

  The wind has gone out of my sails.

 

 

Its been 2000 years since Christ brought the truth and it hasn't burnt out yet, so I wouldn't hold your breath on it dissipating anytime soon. Consider that if something is actually eternal, its longevity is guaranteed.

 

The wind has gone out of your sails, but Christianity will never burn out and is going full speed ahead, so your comment is kind of a oxymoron. 

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