Wiccan Ulc Ministers

[Isaac_Kramer]

Let me start by stating that I am curious in learning other Wiccan ULC Ministers opinions on this topic, since it is Wiccan related.

In Ohio and some of the other states that surround us, I hear about there being a wide division between Wiccans and Witches. There has been great discussion over the use of prayer vs. spells and it has gone as far as tearing friends apart, even covens. There are groups of people swearing that in order to be Wiccan you must be more Spiritual, therfore making Spiritual Wiccans. This is what my church calls itself.

What I would like to know is, are there any other areas with this problem? How do you feel about this? Could this be the start of the true Spiritual Wiccan churches about to emerge? With this and our growing population numbers of this religion are we close to needing to establish some sort of doctrine?

I personally do feel that we should have some sort of doctrine to help us better than the past. I also have no qualms of a form of fair counseled hierarchy, however, this is the same type of talk that could get me seriously hurt by some members/groups in our religion. Perhaps this view would help to usher us into a better light with some more conservative religious groups. I have several ideas along this line as well as what this type of counsel would be established for, though I feel few will actually listen right now.

Please feel free to give me more insights from other Wiccans abroad instead of in my local area!

[Reverend Matthew T. Brock]

Well, I am a solitary eclectic. The schism that apparently is happening is of no concern to me. It will not change my belief structure or change my mind on anything. I do believe, however, in a more spritual path. I do pray more than I cast spells.

That being said, I truly hope that whatever happens, happens peacefully.

Blessed be!

[Dave]

.....I personally do feel that we should have some sort of doctrine to help us better than the past.....

I understand what you are trying to do, but would that actually accomplish anything? Those that wish to call themselves Wiccan will still do so and it wouldn't matter to them what some council says about it.

It seems to me that Atheist and Wiccans have much in common in that we do not want to follow anything. We're free "spirits", not followers.

Maybe you could try a "National Wiccan Council" or something, not a doctrine but a voice that could help dispel the myths and lies about Wiccans. It would be more an umbrella organization that all could fit under instead of something everyone has to follow.

[Elobob]

Wiccan / witch wars happen every so often. It is like when one faction of the Baptist church gets pissy with the main body and breaks off. It goes with the saying not all witches are Wiccan but all wiccans are witches. Just as not all Christians are Baptists but all Baptists are Christians.

(Note) Baptists are used as reference only. No Christians or Baptists were harmed in this posting)

Cheers

Bob

[mark 45]

while it is true that not all witchs are wiccans,it is also true that not all wiccans are witchs.

dave suprises me in the fact that he says that athiests and wiccans have some things in common.i agree with him considering the different types of wicca that are out there.and i agree that it would not serve those who choose wicca as their path to have a dogma set up about it.better a national clearing house to help with correct information.

[Isaac_Kramer]

See this is good. The idea of a council would be national level, I think that is the best way. I also see what you are all saying about the doctrine. I think what I really mean is something more standard across the board. Such as we currently use the Wiccan Rede, though I do understand that some traditions do not use it. I'm thinking perhaps if we took the time to establish a set training system for our clergy to help send them in the right direction. Say that they need x number of Psych courses, x number of languages, or x number of Wiccan and Pagan lit and history and so forth. I understand that there will still be the ones who disagree and will not see it and call themselves Wiccans. I just think that Christians and other religions would see us in a better light if we were a little more organized.

The theory on not all witches are Wiccans but all Wiccans are witches has become false now days. As Rev. Matthew T. Brock and myself both state, we do not find ourselves really casting, but praying more. This is truly starting to become the norm. Is it that we are longing for some sort of deeper meaning now? Perhaps, but the truth is, it is happening.

Elobob "Wiccan / witch wars happen every so often". True but as I have been hearing this one is not typical and many of the Elders I know say this may be the beginning of the end of the two being "confused", for lack of better term, as the same.

I have no qualms with any religious beliefs nor with witches. The fact is though something large is about to happen, I feel it.

[Phillipe]

dave suprises me in the fact that he says that athiests and wiccans have some things in common.

Only because he and Connie are goombahs - otherwise he'd be all over this topic just as he is everything else.

[Pope John XXIV]

ah yes...selective atheism

Only because he and Connie are goombahs - otherwise he'd be all over this topic just as he is everything else.

[mark 45]

not all wiccans agree on the meaning of"and it harm none"...as such,there would be infighting among those who disagree as there is in any other belief system.and there are those who do not wish to be identified as wiccan,pagan,ect.

if you are looking for recognation like the more fundemental denomanations claim to have,you'll be spinning in circles trying to achive that,and in the process killing a movement that was based on getting away from those things.as has been said,a national council for the purpose of information and learning is good.no matter what type of wicca you choose to follow,there should be information available;and by someone who knows what their talking about.

this is just my 2 cents worth from a non wiccan.

[Dave]

Only because he and Connie are goombahs - otherwise he'd be all over this topic just as he is everything else.

Wrong as usual.

[Isaac_Kramer]

not all wiccans agree on the meaning of"and it harm none"...as such,there would be infighting among those who disagree as there is in any other belief system.and there are those who do not wish to be identified as wiccan,pagan,ect.

if you are looking for recognation like the more fundemental denomanations claim to have,you'll be spinning in circles trying to achive that,and in the process killing a movement that was based on getting away from those things.as has been said,a national council for the purpose of information and learning is good.no matter what type of wicca you choose to follow,there should be information available;and by someone who knows what their talking about.

this is just my 2 cents worth from a non wiccan.

A friend of mine has a saying, "herding Pagans is like herding Cats". He explained to me that it would be difficult because each have a mind and diva-like personality of their own. However, it's not impossible if you have the right leaders to guide them is what he also tells me. The type of National Council that I would suggest would consist of over 300 leaders combined from all the states. Each one appointed by their local communities and serving terms that could expire or cause them to not be re-elected. This would be similiar to that of Congress but just for Wiccans. There would not be a defined leader, guru, pope, or another other extreme title in charge of the masses. There would be 3 President elects from inside the council to help keep things flowing. Each one serving a 3 year term with no caps and with no special privledges of any kind, just to help guide the council.

This council would help in issues regarding:

Education Affairs

International Affairs

Inter-Religious Affairs

Environmental Affairs

Armed Services Affairs

Prison Chaplain Affairs

Historical

Ethics & Standards

Services & Rituals

Musical

Elections

Finance

Public Services

Security

I guess what I would be imposing would mean for many of us Wiccans to place our differences aside to work together as well as throwing off our diva crowns and saying we are one.

*This message is not meant to sound insulting in any way, and no cats were hurt nor offended in the process.*

[Dave]

I guess what I would be imposing would mean for many of us Wiccans to place our differences aside to work together as well as throwing off our diva crowns and saying we are one.

That would be a giant step in "growing" your religion, but also the hardest part. Giving up their little kingdoms to give even the slightest appearance of being under some form of control will be very hard for some. But then you don't really want that kind of person in your organization anyway.

It seems that someone has already tried what you're trying to do. The American Council of Witches. I'd try for a different name this time. Leave out the "witch" thing, at least in the title.

There is also the Covenant of the Goddess. Again, a bad choice of name. You have to think marketing here even though you are not actually selling anything, you are trying to sell the idea to the public.

[Pope John XXIV]

Oh Oh sounds like an ad hominem...

Wrong as usual.

[howardseh]

That would be a giant step in "growing" your religion, but also the hardest part. Giving up their little kingdoms to give even the slightest appearance of being under some form of control will be very hard for some. But then you don't really want that kind of person in your organization anyway.

It seems that someone has already tried what you're trying to do. The American Council of Witches. I'd try for a different name this time. Leave out the "witch" thing, at least in the title.

There is also the Covenant of the Goddess. Again, a bad choice of name. You have to think marketing here even though you are not actually selling anything, you are trying to sell the idea to the public.

Tried is indeed the key word here. Every umbrella orginazation that has has come into being to act as a council for pagans (a more inclusive term though it has its own baggage) has failed, been ripped apart by politics and theological debate and what remains of them are now little more than regional organizations with no clout outside their area.

I believe that all the pagan paths have within their core a localism, for some an individualism, that makes a national or international governing body antithetical. What I believe is needed is an organization dedicated to providing a means of communication and mediation between all the groups and individuals.

Rev. H

[Pope John XXIV]

Wiccan / witch wars happen every so often. It is like when one faction of the Baptist church gets pissy with the main body and breaks off. It goes with the saying not all witches are Wiccan but all wiccans are witches. Just as not all Christians are Baptists but all Baptists are Christians.

(Note) Baptists are used as reference only. No Christians or Baptists were harmed in this posting)

Cheers

Bob

[Reverend Matthew T. Brock]

To Be effective, ANY governing body for the wiccan/pagan/polytheists of the world would have to be so open to ideas, that it would almost self destruct. Speaking for myself, the reason why I chose a solitary path was to avoid outside influence. I would, however, love to see some kind of advisory board/committee that would help those of us interested in hospital/police/fire chaplain services.

[Elobob]

IMHO I think the closest the pagan community ever came to being under one umbrella was with Alastair Crowley and the Order of the Golden Dawn. But even they had inner battles among themselves. With his death the Order broke up into smaller entities. Still around but not with the power it once had.

Cheers

Bob

[Isaac_Kramer]

This is a very hard task and I understand that it is not going to just grow overnight. And if someone ever did think that they were sadly mistaken as well. There is a lot of trust that must be rebuilt from over the years. The Council of American Witches is what actually gave me this idea a few years back. I have been sitting on it for some time waiting for the perfect moment. The COG has a lot of bad clout about them and I hope that one day they too will be able to move forward.

As for a name I have been considering The Council of Ordains. I think that this pretty much describes how I feel it should be. I know to make this work I must "sell" the idea to the current sharks of the religion, ie: COG, ATC, Sacred Well, and Circle Sanctuary. Once I have them supporting this, we can begin to work together and bring in the smaller organizations such as churches like my own.

I only have the purest of intentions and hope that this is convied in what I do, though I will not have control. Though I am experienced, I do not feel as though I am "right" for the job as a Co-President of the Council, perhaps a Speaker or Council member at this time.

Many groups self destruct when you have people who are unwilling to listen to one another. I think that if everyone understand the benefits of this Council than more will be apt to listen and assist. As the Rev. Matthew Brock said, "I would, however, love to see some kind of advisory board/committee that would help those of us interested in hospital/police/fire chaplain services." I think this Council will help us establish ourselves better in those areas and more. I just need to find people like him who are seeking growth to help make headway.

[Dave]

This is a very hard task and I understand that it is not going to just grow overnight. And if someone ever did think that they were sadly mistaken as well. There is a lot of trust that must be rebuilt from over the years. The Council of American Witches is what actually gave me this idea a few years back. I have been sitting on it for some time waiting for the perfect moment. The COG has a lot of bad clout about them and I hope that one day they too will be able to move forward.

As for a name I have been considering The Council of Ordains. I think that this pretty much describes how I feel it should be. I know to make this work I must "sell" the idea to the current sharks of the religion, ie: COG, ATC, Sacred Well, and Circle Sanctuary. Once I have them supporting this, we can begin to work together and bring in the smaller organizations such as churches like my own.

You are going to have to convince those existing organizations to come under your umbrella. Make sure they realize that you are just going to be an information clearing house and a national organization through which they can receive a nationally recognized certificate for chaplainships and such. Maybe for that certificate the sponsoring organization can request the certificate for that person saying that they have met THAT organizations requirements. You don't do any testing, they do. Sounds like a good compromise to me, they keep to their own rules and get a nationally recognized certificate (or whatever you want to call it).

As for the name, I'd personally stick with something simple and straight forward. American Wiccan Council, or something like that that comes right out and says exactly what you are in a way that everyone can recognize it. Big business spends big bucks just to figure out a name for a product. Name recognition is where it's at.

I only have the purest of intentions and hope that this is convied in what I do, though I will not have control. Though I am experienced, I do not feel as though I am "right" for the job as a Co-President of the Council, perhaps a Speaker or Council member at this time.

Many groups self destruct when you have people who are unwilling to listen to one another. I think that if everyone understand the benefits of this Council than more will be apt to listen and assist. As the Rev. Matthew Brock said, "I would, however, love to see some kind of advisory board/committee that would help those of us interested in hospital/police/fire chaplain services." I think this Council will help us establish ourselves better in those areas and more. I just need to find people like him who are seeking growth to help make headway.

Just keep an eye out for people trying to build an empire. They'll take over and kill anything you're trying to accomplish.

[Call me Flower]

Mankind was given freewill. I personally believe it is ment to be that way. Differnt "flavors" of the Craft and wicca are what make an exciting horse race. Lumping us all together into one pile is taking away freewill.

Peace will come when it is time. And so too will change. My two cents worth.

Flower