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Isaac_Kramer

Wiccan Ulc Ministers

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Mankind was given freewill. I personally believe it is ment to be that way. Differnt "flavors" of the Craft and wicca are what make an exciting horse race. Lumping us all together into one pile is taking away freewill.

Peace will come when it is time. And so too will change. My two cents worth.

Flower

Well Spoken, Flower....

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I'm not talking about taking away anyone's freewill. The freewill still exist. The problem I seem to see is that Wiccans & Pagans associate organization with lack of freewill. Perhaps if we had a system of organization of some sort than we could govern our freewill. Do you currently have freewill to walk into a hospital or prision to minister without being questioned about your beliefs and intentions? Do you currently have the freewill to wear your pentacle without the possibility of being attacked by another? These are things that need to be addressed, from my point of view. I feel that the only way they are going to truly resolve is by us going in together, working together, and speaking together as a more organized, uniformed voice. "Power to the masses". It is a theory that has always been true. Million man march is a good example of this. Freewill isn't being taken from anyone.

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...Perhaps if we had a system of organization of some sort than we could govern our freewill...

Wow. Do you realize how that line sounds?

One of the reasons that taoism has survived so long and endured so many persecutions is because it has never been a formally-structured belief. Every recent attempt at classifying and structuring this belief has failed, and I thank the stars for that.

No...governing freewill is like charging for free love...

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..... Freewill isn't being taken from anyone.

And in EVERYTHING you've said here you have been very careful to not tell any Wiccan how to be a Wiccan. I don't see even a hint of a desire for you, or your proposed group, to take away any persons "Free Will" to be the kind of Wiccan they think they should be. You're just trying to take a bunch of little voices and combine them into one big voice.

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Mankind was given freewill. I personally believe it is ment to be that way. Differnt "flavors" of the Craft and wicca are what make an exciting horse race. Lumping us all together into one pile is taking away freewill.

The thing is he is not trying to take away your Free Will. He is trying to give you a voice.

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The thing is he is not trying to take away your Free Will. He is trying to give you a voice.

Dave, Thank you for seeing and understanding it for me.

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Isaac and Dave,

I did not misunderstand the vision or point of view here. I simply stated that mankind has freewill. You asked a question and I answered it.

Flower

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The thing is he is not trying to take away your Free Will. He is trying to give you a voice.

Maybe she doesn't need a voice. Maybe she has a perfectly good one of her own. I agree flower nice post.

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Isaac and Dave,

I did not misunderstand the vision or point of view here. I simply stated that mankind has freewill. You asked a question and I answered it.

Flower

Thank you for answering my question!

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The thing is he is not trying to take away your Free Will. He is trying to give you a voice.

You are dealing with POV here. As I said in my last post, paganism today is individualistic in the extreme and it is hard to accept that any umbrella group can adequately represent the wants and needs of all individuals. compromise is viewd as laying down one's Free Will. Also, Compromise is not possible at this time because there is a pervading mistrust in the pagan community brought about by lack of communication, miscommunication and ridiculous arguments over Wiccan/Witch and who's a fluff. We must focus on opening lines of communication before we can act together.

Rev. H

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You are dealing with POV here.

Huh?

As I said in my last post, paganism today is individualistic in the extreme and it is hard to accept that any umbrella group can adequately represent the wants and needs of all individuals. compromise is viewd as laying down one's Free Will.

That makes no sense what so ever to me. No one is trying to represent all the wants and needs of any one. It doesn't matter to me anyway, I have no dog in this fight. If you want to argue about it, then I'm out of here.

Edited by Dave

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I'm pagan and even I am starting to get confused with this thread.

Is it time for my meds yet?

Cheers

Bob

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You are dealing with POV here. As I said in my last post, paganism today is individualistic in the extreme and it is hard to accept that any umbrella group can adequately represent the wants and needs of all individuals. compromise is viewd as laying down one's Free Will. Also, Compromise is not possible at this time because there is a pervading mistrust in the pagan community brought about by lack of communication, miscommunication and ridiculous arguments over Wiccan/Witch and who's a fluff. We must focus on opening lines of communication before we can act together.

Rev. H

Thank you for bringing it back around. We are dealing with Point Of Views and is that the problem in our community? Have we come to a point where POV drives our beliefs and we have abandoned what our religion is about? I think that there is a large lack of communication, miscommunication, and arguments. I was reading on Yahoo Answers about Wicca being a fad and how it has killed the religion with "fluffies". For those of you who do not know what a "Fluffy" is, it's a term used to describe Wiccans (particularly those new to the Craft), who only see the happy, light, positive side of magick. This is one of the things that will drive an Elder of the religion, such as myself, up the wall quicker then anything. You have to break them down and teach them that we are not tree hugging, hippies who want to "feel the energy flow around us and soak in it's warmth". Some of you may know what I mean by experiencing this first hand.

So how do we start communicating again?

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So how do we start communicating again?

You'll have to realize that no matter what you say, you cannot communicate with some people. If they cannot see the need for what you are trying to do, then move on to greener pastures. When you get your organization going and they see the benefits to them, take the high road and let them in anyway.

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There may never be lines of communication here. The reason for this is most of the practitioners of the olde ways, older than wicca. Have heard these thoughts and ideas before. They have always ended in tear shed for both sides.

A brief history lesson. At one time it is believed we had councels and were organized. But that changed with the advent of the Christian way of life. Then we went underground. Each group became a circle of no more than 13. This was for safty. Your problem is not a lack of communication. Or misunderstandings. It is deeper than that. We have been burned before literally and figuritvly by those claiming to want to help. It really has nothing to do with your idea. It has everything to do with keeping our freewill and proctecting ourselves.

There are many sides to every coin. I just gave one of them.

Flower

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There may never be lines of communication here. The reason for this is most of the practitioners of the olde ways, older than wicca. Have heard these thoughts and ideas before. They have always ended in tear shed for both sides.

A brief history lesson. At one time it is believed we had councels and were organized. But that changed with the advent of the Christian way of life. Then we went underground. Each group became a circle of no more than 13. This was for safty. Your problem is not a lack of communication. Or misunderstandings. It is deeper than that. We have been burned before literally and figuritvly by those claiming to want to help. It really has nothing to do with your idea. It has everything to do with keeping our freewill and proctecting ourselves.

There are many sides to every coin. I just gave one of them.

Flower

That is the history of Stregaria. Italian witchcraft for those who do not know. Its survival depended on going underground, having both groups and individuals, and having the gathered knowledge broken up and held by specific groups and individuals so that the loss of a group to christian persecution would not result in the loss of all the knowledge. My first unofficial teacher was strega. Two things I learned from that are they never forgive or forget an injury against them and anyone who does things differently from their way, even if it works, is wrong. Having been forged up close to the fires of persecution emmanating from Rome this is understandable.

That said, it is time to stop hiding, start trusting and don't be so judgemental. We are in a position of strength now though we act as if we are weak. Yes, the "christian right" is stiring and trying to become dominant once more. Let us not let our inaction cause us and those who follow to go through the same persecution and need to hide that our predesessors did.

Rev. H

Edited for grammar

Edited by howardseh

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So how do we start communicating again?

I think we already are communicating again. The internet forum may be the answer.

http://www.ulctribal.com/forum/

Have you seen this yet, Isaac?

Maybe a new Pagan forum is a way of beginning this. Maybe we can use the old in a new way. Talk to OHCowgirl and see what she has to say about it.

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Have we come to a point where POV drives our beliefs and we have abandoned what our religion is about?

I think right here is the source of the "Wiccan/Witch" controversy. Most witches who do not identify as wiccan or one of the other religions associated with the craft consider being a witch a way of life. Religion, to them, is beside the point. Thus an organization headed by a Wiccan elder makes them nervous.

You have to break them down and teach them that we are not tree hugging, hippies who want to "feel the energy flow around us and soak in it's warmth".

I was involved with dealing with "fluffies" online. It usually degenerated into name calling which helped no one. However, I began to notice that after a confrontation with "fluffs" we had this feeling of superiority in knocking them down. That should not be what these interactions are about. I also began to realize that we were driving people away from the craft, particulary the younger ones. We were hurting more than helping so I stopped hanging with that group. Now, when I encounter "fluffs" I simply try to show them there is so much more to the craft than what they know. It is up to them to take me up on my offer. We will never unify if we are always "defender of the faith".

Rev. H

PS. - I have ideas how to begin communicating with each other, but they don't belong in this thread.

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That said, it is time to stop hiding, start trusting and don't be so judgemental. We are in a position of strength now though we act as if we are weak. Yes, the "christian right" is stiring and trying to become dominant once more. Let us not let our inaction cause us and those who follow to go through the same persecution and need to hide that our predesessors did.

Rev. H

Edited for grammar

I think we already are communicating again. The internet forum may be the answer.

http://www.ulctribal.com/forum/

Have you seen this yet, Isaac?

Maybe a new Pagan forum is a way of beginning this. Maybe we can use the old in a new way. Talk to OHCowgirl and see what she has to say about it.

Rev. Matthew, yes I am a member of that group, however I have really yet been able to spend time in it. I am planning on doing more research and reading on the boards this weekend. I don't like to just post until I have read some post for a little while first.

Rev. H., I do agree with you. We need to come up out of the undergrounds and reclaim our place in the society. More Wiccans are wearing pentacles now. I believe that if we continue to fear persecution and allow other religions to hold it over us then it will happen. We have the fire this time, not them. As they say on Survivor, "fire is life". Perhaps if we as Wiccans used this chat forum to our advantage with the other Christians and non-denominationals reading it to educate like we are, they would understand us better.

Flower, I know the history lessons. I taught them for years, but that doesn't mean I accept them as my path today. I respect what they did and why, dont' get me wrong. I don't respect that we have lived in fear for generations because of it. Paganism in all forms was one of the oldest religions of the world and one of the largest. We stepped down and hid because of a man in a robe quoting doctrines and stories. Now we wear the robes and can do the same without the violence. As for circles of no more than 13 we have broken that law several times. I know of many covens who have over 20 members today. If we are going to be willing to break the laws, than why stop there?

Isaac

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Issac,

I'm done here on this thread. I wish you luck in your endever. I hope it does not end in tears for you or others who wish to follow you. Change is comming, perhaps not in the way you wish it to. The world has a funny way of making up it's own mind. The people on this thread who do not agree with your idea of a world vision are trying to teach you about the past, so you don't make the same mistakes twice. It's now up to you.

Flower

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