Agnostic Theist

[damnthing]

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

Not at all, I get the concept of evidence... But the concept of faith seems to elude you. Your criteria is objective verifiable proof, while God's criteria is faith and trust. Having undeniable facts to confirm a truth requires no belief. We are here to make a choice (John 3:16), irrefutable evidence defies the necessity of choice and negates free will. 

 

 

Talk about conflating! Washington may have had 5400 soldiers who crossed the Delaware with him, but Jesus fed 5000 is a single afternoon. And once all the 'eyewitnesses' are dead and gone, it could all be construed as hearsay evidence couldn't it.

 

The Romans didn't care, nor did they record anything about the religious territories they conquered, so the fact that it was mentioned later is a testimony that Christ was not fictional.

 

The cannibalism remark is nonsense, its confusion by Gentile infidels who were ignorant and confused about the wine and bread as being actual blood and flesh, when they were symbolic of the life and sacrifice of Christ. (1 Corinthians 11:24-25).

 

There was no one to refute the Risen Christ because they couldn't. There's no argument for a prophecy come true.

 

For Satan's sake? You believe in him but not Jesus? Interesting... If a +2000 year old book is false, you ought to be able to prove it, but the fact that its irrefutable beyond all unsubstantiated allegations lends credibility to its authenticity and  reliability. We each choose the legitimacy of what we have knowledge of.

 

 

When you look for inconsistencies in something that you deny, you'll find them, or better said, you'll make them up.

 

The Romans didn't pay Judas, the High Priest did.. The crowds and followers of Jesus were the reason they wanted to arrest him at night in order to avoid resistance. Judas gave them the exact location of where the Temple guards could get him under the cover of night.

 

No biblical contradictions, just excuses to justify disbelief.

There are actual written documentation that would prove that washington had an army with him when he crossed the delaware, and there are records to show housing, feeding, clothing the army, records to show where washington slept, fought, etc. But there are no records to show cheeses fed anyone, much less 5000 people, in ONE day? Seriously, you believe that nonsense? It is absurd and delusional. The crossing of the delaware is historical, and historically documented by everyone from a drummer boy to the general himself. That they are all now dead proves one thing, that they are all dead. Their 'testimony', if you will, was laid down anywhere from hours or days after the crossing to months or years but by eyewitnesses. Historians collect these 'stories', all crossed checked and verified and incorporated into -in this instance- our national history.

 

But you actually claim some shaman feed 5000 people in one day and the romans never noticed? 5000 people, gathered in ONE spot, and fed from a never-ending basket of fish and bread? The romans would have dearly loved to have gotten hold of that little proto-olive garden.

 

cheeses wasn't mentioned, only the fact about the x tians and they being cannibals. And to that point how do you know that the early x tians weren't cannibals and that the story was modified over centuries because...you know, cannibalism is generally frowned upon.

 

And finally, stop quoting your sources as some numbered fairy tale in your big book of badassery, that is NOT a reputable source of anything other than human malfeasance and malignancy. But it proves my point, while there are a myriad of sources to document washington's crossing the delaware you can only point to your babble as confirmation to what you say, which is just you, quoting from the same source your quote as the source of your quote....oh the hell with it, you know it's nonsense just as much as we all do, it's just that you're so committed to your fantasy you can't set it down, walk away and realize just how silly it all is.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, damnthing said:

There are actual written documentation that would prove that washington had an army with him when he crossed the delaware, and there are records to show housing, feeding, clothing the army, records to show where washington slept, fought, etc. But there are no records to show cheeses fed anyone, much less 5000 people, in ONE day? Seriously, you believe that nonsense? It is absurd and delusional. The crossing of the delaware is historical, and historically documented by everyone from a drummer boy to the general himself. That they are all now dead proves one thing, that they are all dead. Their 'testimony', if you will, was laid down anywhere from hours or days after the crossing to months or years but by eyewitnesses. Historians collect these 'stories', all crossed checked and verified and incorporated into -in this instance- our national history.

 

But you actually claim some shaman feed 5000 people in one day and the romans never noticed? 5000 people, gathered in ONE spot, and fed from a never-ending basket of fish and bread? The romans would have dearly loved to have gotten hold of that little proto-olive garden.

 

cheeses wasn't mentioned, only the fact about the x tians and they being cannibals. And to that point how do you know that the early x tians weren't cannibals and that the story was modified over centuries because...you know, cannibalism is generally frowned upon.

 

And finally, stop quoting your sources as some numbered fairy tale in your big book of badassery, that is NOT a reputable source of anything other than human malfeasance and malignancy. But it proves my point, while there are a myriad of sources to document washington's crossing the delaware you can only point to your babble as confirmation to what you say, which is just you, quoting from the same source your quote as the source of your quote....oh the hell with it, you know it's nonsense just as much as we all do, it's just that you're so committed to your fantasy you can't set it down, walk away and realize just how silly it all is.

 

I hate defending Dan.  In fairness, I expect that Dan really does believe it.  I've wasted more time arguing with Dan than you have.  He's sincere.

 

 

 

 

[damnthing]

1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

I hate defending Dan.  In fairness, I expect that Dan really does believe it.  I've wasted more time arguing with Dan than you have.  He's sincere.

 

 

 

 

No need to ever defend him, he's undeserving. Thus my comments to/about him. He is the problem. I have no sympathy regardless of how he was infected (most likely his parental units). \

 

No matter, he makes a conscious effort to tamp down questioning because NOT questioning is easier, his world works so much easier if he takes his hands off of his steering wheel vis-a-vis the bumper sticker: god is my copilot  Anytime I see that on a car I desperately want to give them a PIT maneuver

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

21 minutes ago, damnthing said:

No need to ever defend him, he's undeserving. Thus my comments to/about him. He is the problem. I have no sympathy regardless of how he was infected (most likely his parental units). \

 

No matter, he makes a conscious effort to tamp down questioning because NOT questioning is easier, his world works so much easier if he takes his hands off of his steering wheel vis-a-vis the bumper sticker: god is my copilot  Anytime I see that on a car I desperately want to give them a PIT maneuver

 

 

I have an observation.  Dan does more to promote Atheism, than all the Atheists on this board combined.  In the end, it's the results that matter.

 

[damnthing]

5 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

I have an observation.  Dan does more to promote Atheism, than all the Atheists on this board combined.  In the end, it's the results that matter.

 

If anything he's a poster child for the need for education and the insidiousness of religo-pathy

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, damnthing said:

If anything he's a poster child for the need for education and the insidiousness of religo-pathy

 

 

When I was new to this board, I self identified as a Pantheist.  After chatting with Dan for a few years, I discovered that this was a lie.  I had become an Atheist.  In that capacity, I continued chatting with Dan.  In time, I discovered that I had become an Apatheist.

 

Dan is not responsible for my development.  I think it would have happened anyway.  He did speed my development along.

 

As a simple Atheist, I still cared whether or not God might exist.  I didn't believe, but I still cared.  Not any more.  Dan actually helped me see that it didn't matter.  For this, I actually owe Dan a debt of gratitude.  Beyond love.  Beyond hate.  There is not  giving a crap.  It's good to be free of all that baggage.  Really, quite liberating.

 

[Pete]

Equally I went from fundamentalist to liberal Christian to agnostic. I am closer to Atheist nowadays. I owe it to talking to people like Dan. He makes me question my thoughts and in doing so I can now see it as all nonesense and unfounded myth. Thanks Dan.

[damnthing]

22 minutes ago, Pete said:

Equally I went from fundamentalist to liberal Christian to agnostic. I am closer to Atheist nowadays. I owe it to talking to people like Dan. He makes me question my thoughts and in doing so I can now see it as all nonesense and unfounded myth. Thanks Dan.

Please don't give credit where credit is NOT due.  Whatever you were questioning, whatever doubts you had, whatever path brought you to where you are, don't thank people like dan because there is NO good will in there, dan does not want people to find their own truth. What he wants is to corrupt and convince people that his 'god' is real. Truth is even he doesn't believe it but hey...it's what he's about not, he has subscribed to the notion that his 'god' exists, sold his soul and will defend to his death that it's all real. Quite sad really

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

16 minutes ago, damnthing said:

Please don't give credit where credit is NOT due.  Whatever you were questioning, whatever doubts you had, whatever path brought you to where you are, don't thank people like dan because there is NO good will in there, dan does not want people to find their own truth. What he wants is to corrupt and convince people that his 'god' is real. Truth is even he doesn't believe it but hey...it's what he's about not, he has subscribed to the notion that his 'god' exists, sold his soul and will defend to his death that it's all real. Quite sad really

 

 

In the follies of my youth, I collected some actual wisdom.

 

"Be grateful for your enemies.  They will show you truths about yourself, that your friends never would."

 

 

 

 

[Pete]

1 hour ago, damnthing said:

Please don't give credit where credit is NOT due.  Whatever you were questioning, whatever doubts you had, whatever path brought you to where you are, don't thank people like dan because there is NO good will in there, dan does not want people to find their own truth. What he wants is to corrupt and convince people that his 'god' is real. Truth is even he doesn't believe it but hey...it's what he's about not, he has subscribed to the notion that his 'god' exists, sold his soul and will defend to his death that it's all real. Quite sad really

Yet, having been brought up a fundamental christian it was analysing what people like Dan said that helped me to shed it. Good will or not, I am grateful to Dan. He is annoying and a pest at times and I am sure he is frustrated with me but it was educational. Not in the way he hoped I know but all dues where they belong. It helped sort out any doubts for me.

[Dan56]

5 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

I hate defending Dan.  In fairness, I expect that Dan really does believe it.  I've wasted more time arguing with Dan than you have.  He's sincere.

 

 

Of course I believe it.... 100%

 

4 hours ago, damnthing said:

No need to ever defend him, he's undeserving. Thus my comments to/about him. He is the problem. I have no sympathy regardless of how he was infected (most likely his parental units). \

 

No matter, he makes a conscious effort to tamp down questioning because NOT questioning is easier, his world works so much easier if he takes his hands off of his steering wheel vis-a-vis the bumper sticker: god is my copilot  Anytime I see that on a car I desperately want to give them a PIT maneuver

 

How am I a problem? You seem to have a ton of animosity towards Christians and I'm guessing your an Anti-Semite too. Your hostility towards those who believe in something beyond the here and now reveal a hateful character. If a bumper sticker angers you, get some help.

 

1 hour ago, Pete said:

Equally I went from fundamentalist to liberal Christian to agnostic. I am closer to Atheist nowadays. I owe it to talking to people like Dan. He makes me question my thoughts and in doing so I can now see it as all nonesense and unfounded myth. Thanks Dan.

 

No offense Pete, but I suspect you've always questioned your thoughts and never really fully accepted Christ as your Savior. You've always questioned the bible and didn't like much of what it said.

 

1 hour ago, damnthing said:

Please don't give credit where credit is NOT due.  Whatever you were questioning, whatever doubts you had, whatever path brought you to where you are, don't thank people like dan because there is NO good will in there, dan does not want people to find their own truth. What he wants is to corrupt and convince people that his 'god' is real. Truth is even he doesn't believe it but hey...it's what he's about not, he has subscribed to the notion that his 'god' exists, sold his soul and will defend to his death that it's all real. Quite sad really

 

Everyone has their own truth, the difference is that my Truth (Christ) is everlasting while your truth dies with you. Nothing fake about me, I'm fully convinced by the Holy Spirit (I know that's all Greek to you). If you lived a couple thousand years ago, I suspect you'd be in the crowd yelling 'Crucify Him".. That's sad.

[Pete]

Whatever Dan. 😂😅 Goodnight to you. 🤣

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

15 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

Of course I believe it.... 100%

 

 

How am I a problem? You seem to have a ton of animosity towards Christians and I'm guessing your an Anti-Semite too. Your hostility towards those who believe in something beyond the here and now reveal a hateful character. If a bumper sticker angers you, get some help.

 

 

No offense Pete, but I suspect you've always questioned your thoughts and never really fully accepted Christ as your Savior. You've always questioned the bible and didn't like much of what it said.

 

 

Everyone has their own truth, the difference is that my Truth (Christ) is everlasting while your truth dies with you. Nothing fake about me, I'm fully convinced by the Holy Spirit (I know that's all Greek to you). If you lived a couple thousand years ago, I suspect you'd be in the crowd yelling 'Crucify Him".. That's sad.

 

 

Yes.  Just so.  I can't imagine anything ever changing your mind.  About anything.  You have encased your mind with the armor of God.  You are a true believer.  That is why I have stopped arguing with you.  It is pointless and futile to continue.     

 

 

 

[Pete]

He has in cased his mind in a scrap book of texts. 

A man made scrap book of texts.

Edited January 18, 2021 by Pete

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

26 minutes ago, Pete said:

He has in cased his mind in a scrap book of texts. 

A man made scrap book of texts.

 

 

It's my sense of humor.  The Armor of God is a Bible reference.  Dan will understand.

 

[Pete]

6 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

It's my sense of humor.  The Armor of God is a Bible reference.  Dan will understand.

 

I know. I was brought up on this stuff. 😁

[damnthing]

10 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Of course I believe it.... 100%

 

 

How am I a problem? You seem to have a ton of animosity towards Christians and I'm guessing your an Anti-Semite too. Your hostility towards those who believe in something beyond the here and now reveal a hateful character. If a bumper sticker angers you, get some help.

 

 

No offense Pete, but I suspect you've always questioned your thoughts and never really fully accepted Christ as your Savior. You've always questioned the bible and didn't like much of what it said.

 

 

Everyone has their own truth, the difference is that my Truth (Christ) is everlasting while your truth dies with you. Nothing fake about me, I'm fully convinced by the Holy Spirit (I know that's all Greek to you). If you lived a couple thousand years ago, I suspect you'd be in the crowd yelling 'Crucify Him".. That's sad.

My animosity is towards those people who honestly feel their belief is the only one and then try to make everyone else believe the same as them.

 

Not even close to anti-semite, anti-hindu, or anti-satan or...well, you get the point, because none of them keep trying to make america a christian nation, it's only/always people like you and so, in that regard yes, I have contempt for you. As for the bumper sticker you have clearly shown you not only don't have a sense of humor, you don't understand humor.

 

You spend an awful lot of time here at ULC arguing with people which suggests that you need the support, the vitriol, the antagonism to support your beliefts. It's like you can't just go off and believe as you wish, instead you have to bring it in here and try and flog people. Because why else would such an upright x tian even bother with a place like the ULC, I hope dear Dog that you aren't an ordained minister here because that would be such perfect irony.

 

To your point, you can't know what happens after death (spoiler alert, non c'e niente dopo la morta) because no one has died and live to tell about it. What you 'believe' is a fantasy not unlike santa claus or the tooth fairy. And that's all fine, your life, your beliefs but the worse possible thing you do is to poison the minds of children, to brainwash them (as you probably/most likely were).

 

As much as you may think otherwise, had I been there I probably would have stood silently, trying to understand why the government felt it necessary to execute someone for a crime they didn't commit.  Who knows, I might have even fallen in with that stone mason and bonded over our dislike of the government as well as the religious ruling class.  After all the shaman was non-violent, preached peace and love, love they neighbor, etc, all those things people like you could learn from.

 

And as for shouting 'crucify him', that would have been you. How do I know? Because you are so devout in your belief you would have been a very, very strict jew,  a rabbi for sure but almost assuredly a pharisee and one of the jewish leaders who wanted the shaman dead. Because while you go on about heaven and hell and parrot the words of your shaman, you don't live those words. You are smug in your beliefs, condescending in your attitude and lack even the barest of compassion for anyone that doesn't believe as you do. I bet whatever you tithe goes only to your church, or towards only those that believe as you do. You are far removed from that murdered shaman but stand shoulder to shoulder with those that convicted him. There is no way a person like you would have not been shouting 'crucify him', it's what you are all about. And that...is truly sad.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

I know. I was brought up on this stuff. 😁

 

 

I was never Christian.  My background is Jewish.  When I was a college student, I had a whole circle of Hasidic friends.  I learned to appreciate the religious mind for what it is.  They are not stupid.  They're crazy.    There is a difference.

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

 

An addendum:  Back in the day, I was taking a class on "drug awareness" for the Public School teacher.  It was an eye opener.  I had to attend an open AA meeting as part of the class.  God is a drug.  AA is about substituting one drug for another.  

 

[Pete]

For many it is philosophical rather than a belief in everything as is written. It is only the fundamentalists who insist all that is written is true. I know Jews who also relate to it being a way of life rather than an assertion all is true. 

I remember as a child attending church 4 times on a sunday and bible study during the week. I then trusted that ministers knew more than me and had all the answers. Today, I certainly do not. 

I had a strict religious up bringing. I learned that church goers were the good people and the rest as rebellious against god. Now I see that is not true and most just do not understand this god belief or see any point to it.