Agnostic Theist

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

27 minutes ago, Pete said:

What good does religion bring at all is a good question. In the right hand it can bring people together to improve themselves and their community and on the left hand it educates a bunch of annoying bigots that are full of prejudice. I think Spong belongs to the right hand. That said I do not wish either.

 

 

Alright.  Let us consider that.

• It can bring people together
• to improve themselves
• and their communities.

Those are three worthwhile goals.  Are there secular ways to achieve these goals?  Maybe secular philosophy?

 

Which brings us back to religion.  By any label, do we need the supernatural?  No.  I don't think that we do.

 

Next question.  If the whole world went Atheist, would this be paradise?  No, it wouldn't.  The world would still be a mess, because people would still be a mess.  Greedy, selfish and all the rest.  I think the world would be less messy.  Or at least messy in less destructive ways.  We can debate this.

 

 

 

 

 

[Pete]

What philosophy are you referring too?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

What philosophy are you referring too?

 

 

Nothing in particular.  Anything not based on the supernatural.  I hesitate to be more specific.  Philosophy is a vast subject.  I don't want to be half-vast about it.

 

[Pete]

On 1/25/2021 at 1:41 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

Alright.  Let us consider that.

• It can bring people together
• to improve themselves
• and their communities.

Those are three worthwhile goals.  Are there secular ways to achieve these goals?  Maybe secular philosophy?

 

Which brings us back to religion.  By any label, do we need the supernatural?  No.  I don't think that we do.

 

Next question.  If the whole world went Atheist, would this be paradise?  No, it wouldn't.  The world would still be a mess, because people would still be a mess.  Greedy, selfish and all the rest.  I think the world would be less messy.  Or at least messy in less destructive ways.  We can debate this.

 

 

 

 

 

As long as it cares for people and our fellow life on this planet I am in. The issue I have is if a philosophy is strongly held, organised, and popular it becomes a religion. One of the reasons I do not like organised religion. It starts to restrain other opinions. The acceptance of someone being an atheist is one of those religious restrictions. I get sick of newly elected politicians demonstrating their religious faith in church. I mean what is wrong with someone being elected as an atheist or agnostic.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

46 minutes ago, Pete said:

As long as it cares for people and our fellow life on this planet I am in. The issue I have is if a philosophy is strongly held, organised, and popular it becomes a religion. One of the reasons I do not like organised religion. It starts to restrain other opinions. The acceptance of someone being an atheist is one of those religious restrictions. I get sick of newly elected politicians demonstrating their religious faith in church. I mean what is wrong with someone being elected as an atheist or agnostic.

 

 

My understanding of philosophy seems a bit looser than yours.  Really, any world outlook can be a philosophy.

 

Strictly my own understanding -- what is the distinction between religion and philosophy?  Religions have clergy.  We can make further distinctions.  Some clergy have authority.  Others lead only by example. 

 

The ULC is a church and an interfaith religion.  We are clergy who have no authority.

 

A further distinction between Religion and Philosophy.  Real religions have body counts.  The exception is the Jains.  The more crazy and extreme a Jain gets, the less we have to worry about.

 

I miss the Apathetic Agnostic Church.          Good times.     

 

     

[RevBogovac]

On 1/25/2021 at 2:41 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

[...]  We can debate this. [...]

 

 

In this topic? Wouldn't that be a bit off topic...?

I wouldn't mind a separate topic about non-religious philosophies that could make the world a better place. 

Let's start with hedonism. I am a firm believer in that (pun intended)... 

[RevBogovac]

5 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

[...] I miss the Apathetic Agnostic Church.          Good times.      [...]

 

They didn't care...? 😇

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 minutes ago, RevBogovac said:

 

In this topic? Wouldn't that be a bit off topic...?

I wouldn't mind a separate topic about non-religious philosophies that could make the world a better place. 

Let's start with hedonism. I am a firm believer in that (pun intended)... 

 

 

It's your idea.  If you wish to start such a thread, it will be my pleasure to join you there in conversation.

 

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

6 minutes ago, RevBogovac said:

 

They didn't care...? 😇

 

 

Actually, he cared a lot.  After running the church for over twenty years, the founder didn't want to do it any more.  It's a burden to run a real church.  Also, I don't have to tell you how much grief we got from pious idiots.  An Agnostic group is a magnet for religious morons.  It wears a man down.

 

Well, the founder retired.  I could have taken over.  I have enough grief in my life.  Being a member can be fun.  Actually running the place?  Not so much.

 

 

The moderators on this board might wish to comment.

 

     

 

 

[Pete]

Interesting for me is the religious society of friends in the UK. No creed and no ministers. They demand no set of beliefs from you.. Except many are pacifists. They meet in silence unless someone is moved to speak. Everyone shares in the funding of the building and duties. The Clerk of the meeting can only be Clerk for two years and then they collectively decide on another. 

They get strongly involved is social concerns. They do marriages and everyone signs the certificate. Again in Silence with both parties present. There is no distinction between sexes including LGTB+ Members. 

Religious definitely but also heavily philosophical.

Edited January 27, 2021 by Pete

[Cornelius]

On 1/25/2021 at 8:41 AM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

If the whole world went Atheist, would this be paradise?  No, it wouldn't.  The world would still be a mess, because people would still be a mess.  Greedy, selfish and all the rest.  I think the world would be less messy.  Or at least messy in less destructive ways.  We can debate this.

 

 

 

 

 

I was with you right up until that point. I think a few seconds of critical thought and a review at Atheisms record over the past century and a half would prove otherwise. So instead of a belief or nonbelief problem. It might just be a human one. I might discuss further.

[Cornelius]

On 1/19/2021 at 10:16 PM, Pete said:

😥

I just wanted to take a second as I realized that my post probably came off much harsher than was intended. I was a little confused at first at the reaction to it. I thought I should clarify that what I said is a basic tenet of the forum that is a part of its foundation. This is an interfaith forum that has open discussion. If you do not want your post commented directly on you can put it in the open pulpit area. So what I meant by writing it that way is that this principle is unquestionable and not open to discussion or debate. I didn't mean it to come across as angry or harsh.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Cornelius said:

I was with you right up until that point. I think a few seconds of critical thought and a review at Atheisms record over the past century and a half would prove otherwise. So instead of a belief or nonbelief problem. It might just be a human one. I might discuss further.

 

 

I may be misreading this.  It looks a lot like a common argument.

 

Hitler was not an Atheist.  He was Catholic.  The Vatican had no difficulty working with his government.  He was never excommunicated.  The majority of Germans at that time, were Catholic or Lutheran.  The German Army belt buckles said, in translation, "God is with us."

 

I suspect that you are conflating Atheism with Communism.  After Russia and China became Communist, their official ideology included Atheism.  Still, there is a distinction to be made.  Communism is not Godless.  It simply substitutes the State for God.  In practice, Mao, Lenin and Pol Pot became gods themselves.

 

The Communist States did not commit their crimes in the name of Atheism.  It was all in the name of Communism.

 

We still have the option of blaming Atheism for all the crimes of the Communist States -- IF -- you are willing to lay the crimes of all Christians, at the feet of their Christian faith.  If you please, let us be consistent.

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

4 hours ago, Pete said:

Interesting for me is the religious society of friends in the UK. No creed and no ministers. They demand no set of beliefs from you.. Except many are pacifists. They meet in silence unless someone is moved to speak. Everyone shares in the funding of the building and duties. The Clerk of the meeting can only be Clerk for two years and then they collectively decide on another. 

They get strongly involved is social concerns. They do marriages and everyone signs the certificate. Again in Silence with both parties present. There is no distinction between sexes including LGTB+ Members. 

Religious definitely but also heavily philosophical.

 

 

Your point is good.  I have no quarrel with the Quakers.

 

Well, they did produce Richard M. Nixon.  I know.  It's not fair to mention that.  I have my own issues.

 

[Cornelius]

1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

I may be misreading this.  It looks a lot like a common argument. 

Looks can often be deceiving.

 

Quote

Hitler was not an Atheist.  He was Catholic.  The Vatican had no difficulty working with his government.  He was never excommunicated.  The majority of Germans at that time, were Catholic or Lutheran.  The German Army belt buckles said, in translation, "God is with us."

Hitler officially, like the rest of the Nazi Party, was a Positive Christian. This was the official religion of the party. A form of Christianity that they invented which was anti-semetic and "pure." Kind of like Identity Christianity in modern times.

The SS followed a pseudo-pagan/christian religion that was taught by Himmler and created by his " religious advisor" Karl Maria Wiligut. In which "Krist" was an ancient germanic pagan god stolen by the jews. There were many ages such as the one where mutated man creatures that eventually came to be called dwarves and giants existed. Karl Maria Wiligut himself was from an ancient secret line of kings and wizards dating to prehistory that had magical genetic memories of the past making him a prophet. It turns out he was insane and later put in a psych hospital to Himmler's great embarrassment. Hitler also dabbled with these beliefs until Karl was hospitalized for insanity.  Then he was furious with Himmler for the bad optics. There were also other beliefs such as the one about Vril Energy from the inner earth beings which was championed by the Thule Society. Mind you all of this is off the top of my head so please excuse any mistakes.

Quote

I suspect that you are conflating Atheism with Communism.  After Russia and China became Communist, their official ideology included Atheism.  Still, there is a distinction to be made.  Communism is not Godless.  It simply substitutes the State for God.  In practice, Mao, Lenin and Pol Pot became gods themselves.

 

The Communist States did not commit their crimes in the name of Atheism.  It was all in the name of Communism.

 

 

This is splitting hairs and looking for an excuse. You wouldn't accept this answer from a religious as you accuse them. If you can lay any atrocity at the feet of the religious, as you have done many times on this forum, then Atheism has to accept it's bad apples. And the apples are bad indeed, with the death count at hundreds of millions by this point. It's only fair right?

 

In modern times China, an atheist communist country, is currently torturing and killing Christians. It is banning their Bible and burning their churches down. This of course doesn't compare to the millions of Uigur Muslims currently held in concentration camps and having genocide committed among them.

Quote

We still have the option of blaming Atheism for all the crimes of the Communist States -- IF -- you are willing to lay the crimes of all Christians, at the feet of their Christian faith.  If you please, let us be consistent.

 

This is exactly what I am asking you to do here. I have seen you do this with your cohorts ad nauseum on this forum alone. It's only fair if you levy these charges against them to use the same measure against yourself.

 

That actually isn't my point. It's actually the opposite. I hope you can reread what I wrote before with better understanding now. You can't blame atheism or the religious because it's just Humans committing these acts. 

 

To use a quote I heard once from a Rockstar "If an ** with a weapon is going to go out and kill a person or people cause another ** with a guitar told him too then they were an ** to begin with and would have done it anyway."

That made sense to me at the time. 

 

Edited January 27, 2021 by Cornelius

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

6 hours ago, Cornelius said:

Looks can often be deceiving.

 

Hitler officially, like the rest of the Nazi Party, was a Positive Christian. This was the official religion of the party. A form of Christianity that they invented which was anti-semetic and "pure." Kind of like Identity Christianity in modern times.

The SS followed a pseudo-pagan/christian religion that was taught by Himmler and created by his " religious advisor" Karl Maria Wiligut. In which "Krist" was an ancient germanic pagan god stolen by the jews. There were many ages such as the one where mutated man creatures that eventually came to be called dwarves and giants existed. Karl Maria Wiligut himself was from an ancient secret line of kings and wizards dating to prehistory that had magical genetic memories of the past making him a prophet. It turns out he was insane and later put in a psych hospital to Himmler's great embarrassment. Hitler also dabbled with these beliefs until Karl was hospitalized for insanity.  Then he was furious with Himmler for the bad optics. There were also other beliefs such as the one about Vril Energy from the inner earth beings which was championed by the Thule Society. Mind you all of this is off the top of my head so please excuse any mistakes.

This is splitting hairs and looking for an excuse. You wouldn't accept this answer from a religious as you accuse them. If you can lay any atrocity at the feet of the religious, as you have done many times on this forum, then Atheism has to accept it's bad apples. And the apples are bad indeed, with the death count at hundreds of millions by this point. It's only fair right?

 

In modern times China, an atheist communist country, is currently torturing and killing Christians. It is banning their Bible and burning their churches down. This of course doesn't compare to the millions of Uigur Muslims currently held in concentration camps and having genocide committed among them.

 

This is exactly what I am asking you to do here. I have seen you do this with your cohorts ad nauseum on this forum alone. It's only fair if you levy these charges against them to use the same measure against yourself.

 

That actually isn't my point. It's actually the opposite. I hope you can reread what I wrote before with better understanding now. You can't blame atheism or the religious because it's just Humans committing these acts. 

 

To use a quote I heard once from a Rockstar "If an ** with a weapon is going to go out and kill a person or people cause another ** with a guitar told him too then they were an ** to begin with and would have done it anyway."

That made sense to me at the time. 

 

 

 

I have two different responses.

 

1.  Are you really conflating Atheism with Communism?  "Splitting hairs"?  Communism is a full ideology.  Atheism is not an ideology.  It's non-belief.

 

2.  If you want to charge modern China with their crimes, you left out a few.

• The persecution of Falun Gong
• Theft and trafficking in human organs
• Over fishing/strip mining of the world's waters
• Destruction of ancient reefs for their artificial islands
• Concealing information about the Corona virus.
• Selling of fake medicines around the world
• Selling of poison infant formula
• Selling of poison pet food
• Trafficking in elephant ivory.
• Trafficking in tiger parts.
• Trafficking in rhino horn
• Trafficking in shark fins

This is what comes to mind.  I'm sure there's more.

 

 

[Pete]

I know this is not easy but communism is not communism..

After the Russian revolution there was mass starvation. 17 differing countries including the US and Britain tried to invade it. In the rural areas the peasant farmers still wanted to maintain their control on food prices. Stalin who was rejected by Lenin and the Bolsheviks worked as the secretary.  After Lenin's death he pretended he and Lenin were best buddies and took control and ran Russia like a single capitalist factory but instead of the millionaires taking the profits the party did. This was the same with Mao. It was Stalin who put up the statues. Lenin had said previously he did not want this and they only collect pigeons. In both Russia and China there was no rule by the people. Both had dictators. They traded as one big factory and became state capitalist. It was the dictators who tried to repress religion because it was a channel for the discontented. Lenin view was to just ignore the religions and to not give them power over the politics, believing without power they would slowly fade away. Stalin and Mao went out of their to have mass persecutions of the religious to silence them. This was to stop the religious challenging them. So atheism was used as a tool rather than a state religion.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

8 minutes ago, Pete said:

I know this is not easy but communism is not communism..

After the Russian revolution there was mass starvation. 17 differing countries including the US and Britain tried to invade it. In the rural areas the peasant farmers still wanted to maintain their control on food prices. Stalin who was rejected by Lenin and the Bolsheviks worked as the secretary.  After Lenin's death he pretended he and Lenin were best buddies and took control and ran Russia like a single capitalist factory but instead of the millionaires taking the profits the party did. This was the same with Mao. It was Stalin who put up the statues. Lenin had said previously he did not want this and they only collect pigeons. In both Russia and China there was no rule by the people. Both had dictators. They traded as one big factory and became state capitalist. It was the dictators who tried to repress religion because it was a channel for the discontented. Lenin view was to just ignore the religions and to not give them power over the politics, believing without power they would slowly fade away. Stalin and Mao went out of their to have mass persecutions of the religious to silence them. This was to stop the religious challenging them. So atheism was used as a tool rather than a state religion.

 

 

Yes.          

[Pete]

It is also to note Stalin had wanted to train as a priest before being involved in politics. You can guess where he got many of his ideas from.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

39 minutes ago, Pete said:

It is also to note Stalin had wanted to train as a priest before being involved in politics. You can guess where he got many of his ideas from.

 

 

      That's funny.