Jonathan H. B. Lobl

Free Will. Do we have it?

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I'm sure everyone knows my opinion, so I won't dwell on all the reasons why I believe everyone has free will.

I entered this post because I decided to do so, my choice was not coherst, predetermined, or forced... That's free will. 

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1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

I'm sure everyone knows my opinion, so I won't dwell on all the reasons why I believe everyone has free will.

I entered this post because I decided to do so, my choice was not coherst, predetermined, or forced... That's free will. 

 

 

Since God knows everything, it follows that God knows the future.  That includes everything that God will ever think, do or change.  That includes every change of mind that God will ever have, so it's not really a change of mind.  From this, it follows that God lacks free will.

 

 

:birgits_giggle:

 

 

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

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4 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

I raised a physics question about the nature of time.  Any takers?     :mellow:

Time is really a purely human concept of measure. We schedule virtually every aspect of our lives with it, even without thinking about it, as we have become conditioned to do it.

Nature, meanwhile, goes about it's business unhindered by it. Driven purely by the needs of survival to do what it needs to as it needs to.

As for a God, since He isn't, or they aren't, human. The entity isn't defined by it. Thus, is as it was in the beginning, as it is presently, and will be tomorrow. The presence doesn't really exists in "time", as we know it.

That's somewhat of a hypothesis that I have an ongoing development in my mind. Still exploring the rough draft of it, you might say.

Edited by Key
grammar

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4 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

Since God knows everything, it follows that God knows the future.  That includes everything that God will ever think, do or change.  That includes every change of mind that God will ever have, so it's not really a change of mind.  From this, it follows that God lacks free will.

 

 

:birgits_giggle:

 

 

Reasonable deductive thinking. Of course, He would have considered that, as well.

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57 minutes ago, Key said:

Time is really a purely human concept of measure. We schedule virtually every aspect of our lives with it, even without thinking about it, as we have become conditioned to do it.

Nature, meanwhile, goes about it's business unhindered by it. Driven purely by the needs of survival to do what it needs to as it needs to.

As for a God, since He isn't, or they aren't, human. The entity isn't defined by it. Thus, is as it was in the beginning, as it is presently, and will be tomorrow. The presence doesn't really exists in "time", as we know it.

That's somewhat of a hypothesis that I have an ongoing development in my mind. Still exploring the rough draft of it, you might say.

 

 

 

The understanding of time is a human invention.  The existence of time is objective.  Measurement is another matter.  Time gives us duration.  Time gives us sequence.  Time gives us causality.  Without time, everything happens in the same moment.

 

Since time is part of space/time, we need to consider the properties of space.  Without space, no division or separation of anything is possible.  No separation or division at all.  Everything is a single point.

 

So, space/time is why existence is more than a single moment and a single point.

 

What happens in a singularity?  Space collapses.  Time slows to a stop.

 

Notice, we got here without Scripture.     :birgits_giggle:

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Key said:

Reasonable deductive thinking. Of course, He would have considered that, as well.

 

 

The moment we say that God knows everything; that's the end of God's free will.     :mellow:

 

Christian's like to say that "God" has a plan.  Plans are for creatures under time.  There is no planning for someone outside of time.     :mellow:     Someone outside of time also can't be surprised.  Or disappointed.     :mellow:

 

Sentience itself might be a problem.  How do you put one thought in front of another, without sequence or duration?     :birgits_giggle:

 

This is what comes of creating doctrine without understanding.     :mellow:

 

Which brings us back to my physics question.  If the past is unchanging, how do we know the future can be changed?  I don't know.

 

 

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50 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

The moment we say that God knows everything; that's the end of God's free will.     :mellow:

 

Christian's like to say that "God" has a plan.  Plans are for creatures under time.  There is no planning for someone outside of time.     :mellow:     Someone outside of time also can't be surprised.  Or disappointed.     :mellow:

 

Sentience itself might be a problem.  How do you put one thought in front of another, without sequence or duration?     :birgits_giggle:

 

This is what comes of creating doctrine without understanding.     :mellow:

 

Which brings us back to my physics question.  If the past is unchanging, how do we know the future can be changed?  I don't know.

 

 

The past is unchanging because what was done can not be undone. When you burn your hand, you can not unburn it. It must heal. The future is ever changing. Every thought or decision changes the course of current reality. Doing nothing sets a path in one direction, but the instant an action is thought or performed, the direction is diverted, because there is a change from doing nothing. (Kind of like stepping forward, as opposed to standing still, or sidestepping leads us to a different position.) We can not see these paths, because we are unaware, unable, or fail to see multiple dimensions of any timeline.

We do not know the future can be changed, really, because we don't know what happens in the future with any certainty. We can only assume, just as we can only hypothesize. 

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1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

 

The understanding of time is a human invention.  The existence of time is objective.  Measurement is another matter.  Time gives us duration.  Time gives us sequence.  Time gives us causality.  Without time, everything happens in the same moment.

 

Since time is part of space/time, we need to consider the properties of space.  Without space, no division or separation of anything is possible.  No separation or division at all.  Everything is a single point.

 

So, space/time is why existence is more than a single moment and a single point.

 

What happens in a singularity?  Space collapses.  Time slows to a stop.

 

Notice, we got here without Scripture.     :birgits_giggle:

 

 

 

 

I kind of differ here. In place of time, I'd say patience gives us duration. (Less patience, more adrenaline for faster response, which renders short term benefits, but sacrifices long term benefits. More patience, less adrenaline, longer response lapse.) Action or inaction gives us sequence and causality. Each is activated by human emotion or perception. As far as we are aware not everything is happening at the same moment. As far as perception goes, maybe it does, but our minds can grasp only so much at once. (Which might also be an argument for the existence of spirits or ghosts, no?)

Yes, we existed for a very long time before Scripture came to be, and probably would be just as troubled had it not been written. We will never know for sure, now.

Edited by Key
more thought

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2 hours ago, Key said:

The past is unchanging because what was done can not be undone. When you burn your hand, you can not unburn it. It must heal. The future is ever changing. Every thought or decision changes the course of current reality. Doing nothing sets a path in one direction, but the instant an action is thought or performed, the direction is diverted, because there is a change from doing nothing. (Kind of like stepping forward, as opposed to standing still, or sidestepping leads us to a different position.) We can not see these paths, because we are unaware, unable, or fail to see multiple dimensions of any timeline.

We do not know the future can be changed, really, because we don't know what happens in the future with any certainty. We can only assume, just as we can only hypothesize. 

 

 

 

This is a thought experiment.  That's all it is.

 

I get into my time machine and go back twenty years.  Everybody that I encounter will think that they have free will.  I know that they don't.  The past will continue as it always has.

 

I return to my starting point in time.  Now, I go twenty years into my future.  Everybody that I encounter thinks that they have free will.

 

Maybe nobody has free will.  Maybe free will is an illusion.  I'm not saying that this is the case.  I'm saying that nobody really knows.  Well -- I don't know.

 

I suspect it comes down to a question.  Does the future already exist, in the same way that the past exists?  I don't know.

 

In the meantime, there is the pragmatic approach.  I choose to live as though I have free will.  Even if it is an illusion.

 

:mellow:

 

 

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

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2 hours ago, Key said:

I kind of differ here. In place of time, I'd say patience gives us duration. (Less patience, more adrenaline for faster response, which renders short term benefits, but sacrifices long term benefits. More patience, less adrenaline, longer response lapse.) Action or inaction gives us sequence and causality. Each is activated by human emotion or perception. As far as we are aware not everything is happening at the same moment. As far as perception goes, maybe it does, but our minds can grasp only so much at once. (Which might also be an argument for the existence of spirits or ghosts, no?)

Yes, we existed for a very long time before Scripture came to be, and probably would be just as troubled had it not been written. We will never know for sure, now.

 

 

You are using "duration" in a different sense than I am.  I am not talking about patience.  Or endurance.  I'm talking about the passing of time.  Without "duration", there is no existence.  It would stop.

 

:mellow:

 

 

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On 7/18/2020 at 12:36 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

You are using "duration" in a different sense than I am.  I am not talking about patience.  Or endurance.  I'm talking about the passing of time.  Without "duration", there is no existence.  It would stop.

 

:mellow:

 

 

It could still apply. Patience would not take notice of a lot of time, yet impatience would. In essence, there already is no time, yet human emotion can not equate life without it.

Now, if you apply it in terms of growth, what you say is very true.

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On 7/18/2020 at 12:23 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

 

This is a thought experiment.  That's all it is.

 

I get into my time machine and go back twenty years.  Everybody that I encounter will think that they have free will.  I know that they don't.  The past will continue as it always has.

 

I return to my starting point in time.  Now, I go twenty years into my future.  Everybody that I encounter thinks that they have free will.

 

Maybe nobody has free will.  Maybe free will is an illusion.  I'm not saying that this is the case.  I'm saying that nobody really knows.  Well -- I don't know.

 

I suspect it comes down to a question.  Does the future already exist, in the same way that the past exists?  I don't know.

 

In the meantime, there is the pragmatic approach.  I choose to live as though I have free will.  Even if it is an illusion.

 

:mellow:

 

 

As for the "time machine" proposal, once you use it, there can be no return to your starting point. You altered the path by going back. And the past. as you knew it could change, as well, as you added an element that was previously missing...you. But that's going off in a different subject.

Free will is only an illusion to those who don't believe we can make choices, or that a predetermined destiny awaits. Which does take much of the fun out of living and enjoying the experience it gives.

Could it not be possible that all "universes" align together at the same moment, but only those associated to the choices we make reveal themselves at the moment of the decision? Possibly taking turns with our perception while we play eenie meenie mynee moe?

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4 minutes ago, Key said:

It could still apply. Patience would not take notice of a lot of time, yet impatience would. In essence, there already is no time, yet human emotion can not equate life without it.

Now, if you apply it in terms of growth, what you say is very true.

 

I have been watching the You Tube videos on the physics of time.  I'm out of my depth.

 

My questions remain the same.  Does the future already exist, in the same way that the past exists?  If the future does exist -- and it is unchanging -- that seems to kill free will.  It would still leave the illusion of free will.

 

If the past exists, but the future does not exist -- yet -- that would have different implications.

 

I'm only raising the questions.  I don't know the answers.

 

:mellow:

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

I have been watching the You Tube videos on the physics of time.  I'm out of my depth.

 

My questions remain the same.  Does the future already exist, in the same way that the past exists?  If the future does exist -- and it is unchanging -- that seems to kill free will.  It would still leave the illusion of free will.

 

If the past exists, but the future does not exist -- yet -- that would have different implications.

 

I'm only raising the questions.  I don't know the answers.

 

:mellow:

 

 

I can't say things for certainty, either. I can question everything, and never know the answers. But it's the questions that make things interesting enough to seek the answers. Otherwise, we would truly never get anywhere with anything.

Why should we look at the past, present, and future as a string between two trees? A beginning, middle, and end. Why not, as I posed in my last response, all of them existing at once with a "veil" to obscure any interaction or catastrophic doom? Would kind of explain 'ghosts" that interact with us now. Occasionally, the "veil" is thin enough to communicate through. 

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5 minutes ago, Key said:

As for the "time machine" proposal, once you use it, there can be no return to your starting point. You altered the path by going back. And the past. as you knew it could change, as well, as you added an element that was previously missing...you. But that's going off in a different subject.

Free will is only an illusion to those who don't believe we can make choices, or that a predetermined destiny awaits. Which does take much of the fun out of living and enjoying the experience it gives.

Could it not be possible that all "universes" align together at the same moment, but only those associated to the choices we make reveal themselves at the moment of the decision? Possibly taking turns with our perception while we play eenie meenie mynee moe?

 

Maybe.  That is a commonly held opinion of the nature of time.  There are other ideas on the subject.

 

I'm working with a different idea.  I think that if I go back into the past -- I become part of the past.  Things work out as they already have -- because it has already happened.

 

In any event, that was only a thought experiment. In reality, I'm fairly certain that travel into the past is not possible.  Into the future, yes.  But not the past.

 

:mellow:

 

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1 minute ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

Maybe.  That is a commonly held opinion of the nature of time.  There are other ideas on the subject.

 

I'm working with a different idea.  I think that if I go back into the past -- I become part of the past.  Things work out as they already have -- because it has already happened.

 

In any event, that was only a thought experiment. In reality, I'm fairly certain that travel into the past is not possible.  Into the future, yes.  But not the past.

 

:mellow:

 

But if there is no future, you would shoot only into a void, or cease to exist, yourself. That hardly seems fun.

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2 minutes ago, Key said:

But if there is no future, you would shoot only into a void, or cease to exist, yourself. That hardly seems fun.

 

 

I was speaking of time dilation as established by Einstein.  As things move faster, they gain mass and (relative) time slows down.  We can not go faster than light speed, because moving mass faster would require infinite energy.

 

Technology has proven time dilation to be true.  Our satelite system, which GPS is based on, has to take the time dilation of the satelites into account because of their speed.  If they did not, GPS would not work.

 

In addition, in a sense, we are already advancing through time.  At the rate of one hour, per hour.  Going into the past would require reversing entropy.  At least, that is what I understand to be the obstacle.

 

:mellow:

 

 

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The Bible and science both agree that matter has not always existed. Scientists have no explanation for how the universe began if neither time nor space nor matter existed prior to the Big Bang. But Christians know that God created everything and that He created the universe ex nihilo (out of nothing). Only a transcendent being could do that.
 
Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning,” that’s time, “God,” that’s force, “created,” that’s energy, “the heavens,” that’s space, “and the earth,” that’s matter.
 
 
"Time is related to space, matter and energy which is known as the space-time continuum. Time, however, is actually a measure of a movement of 15 degrees in the rotation of our solar system.
        The faster matter moves and approaches the speed of light, the more compressed it becomes and the slower time becomes. A foot long ruler becomes shorter and shorter as it approaches the speed of light. At the speed of light it no longer exists as a ruler. It has become energy. More correctly it has become energy/matter. Or matter/energy. I’m not really sure how to explain that. If you then slow it down from the speed of light, it becomes a ruler again. Shorter than a foot, but lengthening as it slows, until it again becomes a foot long ruler.

It’s also been discovered that gravitational fields have an effect upon the space-time continuum in that the gravitational field can actually “bend” space and time.
        When we get into the subject of black holes, white holes, wormholes, cosmic strings and parallel universes our concepts of time and space are so severely impacted as to leave us breathless.
        A neutron star has a density of about a billion tons per cubic inch. By comparison, steel is close to a vacuum. Black holes have far greater densities than a neutron star and are created when stars reach a mass that’s four times the mass of the sun, have burned up their fuel and collapse under their own weight and implode. The former star is crushed to insignificant volume and density that’s difficult to even imagine. Their gravitational fields are so strong that even light can’t escape it.
 
 Time, which we have relegated to a clock on a wall, or on our wrists, takes on a new meaning as we realize how it is only a human perspective and not an absolute. We can understand how a day with the Lord is as a thousand years because of the space-time continuum. We can get an inkling as to how Jesus changed space, time, matter and energy as He easily temporarily altered the laws of this natural world to which we humans are bound. And remember, all of this is within the parameters of what we know as the four dimensions of length, width, height and time and doesn’t even begin to incorporate the other multi-dimensions which God created and in which God dwells." http://www.angelfire.com/in/HisName/creator.html
 

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