Free Will. Do we have it?

[damnthing]

26 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

 

Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning,” that’s time, “God,” that’s force, “created,” that’s energy, “the heavens,” that’s space, “and the earth,” that’s matter.

 

 

'in the beginning' how all really good faerie tales begin

'god' created as a means to explain natural phenomenon and processes by assigning human-like entities to be responsible

'created'  to explain how nature works without any real knowledge of how nature works

'The heavens' just look up, shinny dots of light, would take thousands of years to only begin to understand space

'earth' one of a number of large solid and gaseous objects orbiting a star, referred to as a planet, found to be fairly common throughout the galaxy.

 

Resources to understand the world and the universe and the science and math that underlies it all

Here

 

Resources to understand the world and the universe and the mythology, fantasy and woo that underlies it all

Here

 

Edited July 20, 2020 by damnthing

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

57 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

The Bible and science both agree that matter has not always existed. Scientists have no explanation for how the universe began if neither time nor space nor matter existed prior to the Big Bang. But Christians know that God created everything and that He created the universe ex nihilo (out of nothing). Only a transcendent being could do that.

 

Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning,” that’s time, “God,” that’s force, “created,” that’s energy, “the heavens,” that’s space, “and the earth,” that’s matter.

 

 

"Time is related to space, matter and energy which is known as the space-time continuum. Time, however, is actually a measure of a movement of 15 degrees in the rotation of our solar system.
        The faster matter moves and approaches the speed of light, the more compressed it becomes and the slower time becomes. A foot long ruler becomes shorter and shorter as it approaches the speed of light. At the speed of light it no longer exists as a ruler. It has become energy. More correctly it has become energy/matter. Or matter/energy. I’m not really sure how to explain that. If you then slow it down from the speed of light, it becomes a ruler again. Shorter than a foot, but lengthening as it slows, until it again becomes a foot long ruler.

It’s also been discovered that gravitational fields have an effect upon the space-time continuum in that the gravitational field can actually “bend” space and time.
        When we get into the subject of black holes, white holes, wormholes, cosmic strings and parallel universes our concepts of time and space are so severely impacted as to leave us breathless.
        A neutron star has a density of about a billion tons per cubic inch. By comparison, steel is close to a vacuum. Black holes have far greater densities than a neutron star and are created when stars reach a mass that’s four times the mass of the sun, have burned up their fuel and collapse under their own weight and implode. The former star is crushed to insignificant volume and density that’s difficult to even imagine. Their gravitational fields are so strong that even light can’t escape it.

 

 Time, which we have relegated to a clock on a wall, or on our wrists, takes on a new meaning as we realize how it is only a human perspective and not an absolute. We can understand how a day with the Lord is as a thousand years because of the space-time continuum. We can get an inkling as to how Jesus changed space, time, matter and energy as He easily temporarily altered the laws of this natural world to which we humans are bound. And remember, all of this is within the parameters of what we know as the four dimensions of length, width, height and time and doesn’t even begin to incorporate the other multi-dimensions which God created and in which God dwells." http://www.angelfire.com/in/HisName/creator.html
 

 

 

 

Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning,” that’s time, “God,” that’s force, “created,” that’s energy, “the heavens,” that’s space, “and the earth,” that’s matter.

 

That looks like William Lain Craig's line.  Is it?

 

I think that you have lost sight of the topic.  We were talking about free will.

 

We can get an inkling as to how Jesus changed space, time, matter and energy

 

Inkle all you like.  That is pure, unsupported theology.

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

53 minutes ago, damnthing said:

'in the beginning' how all really good faerie tales begin

 

 

I think it would be more accurate to say --  "Once upon a time, God created the Heavens and the Earth."

 

 

 

[Dan56]

3 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

I think that you have lost sight of the topic.  We were talking about free will.

 

If time were not created, then the future is known because there would be no differentiation between what was, what is, and what will be. So in our conscious experience. the duration of time is the measurement used to sequence events, and in that sense free will and time are interlinked.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

22 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

If time were not created, then the future is known because there would be no differentiation between what was, what is, and what will be. So in our conscious experience. the duration of time is the measurement used to sequence events, and in that sense free will and time are interlinked.

 

 

I started this thread with an analysis of the properties of time.  Including duration and sequence.  Do you have anything to add?  

[Key]

On 7/20/2020 at 8:56 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

I started this thread with an analysis of the properties of time.  Including duration and sequence.  Do you have anything to add?  

To be fair, Jonathan, the thread topic is on free will. We brought in the time tangent as an influence aspect of free will. Dan's last response did correlate the two. 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

Brain Issues in Free Will

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

 

More Brain Issues

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

 

More about the structure of time.     

 

 

[forester]

Yes.

[imgnick]

This is for clarification before I respond to other parts of the topic (a topic I LOVE and does not yet have a 100% answer for one side or another imo), but doesn't pre-determined/pre-destined sort of presuppose a determiner? And if there is not, on what basis is a lack of free will argued (the time travel is discussed next).

 

P.S. I am currently at work and cannot view the YouTube videos though I can guess their general content and will likely add to responses after viewing

Edited August 8, 2020 by imgnick
added p.s

[Key]

29 minutes ago, imgnick said:

This is for clarification before I respond to other parts of the topic (a topic I LOVE and does not yet have a 100% answer for one side or another imo), but doesn't pre-determined/pre-destined sort of presuppose a determiner? And if there is not, on what basis is a lack of free will argued (the time travel is discussed next).

 

P.S. I am currently at work and cannot view the YouTube videos though I can guess their general content and will likely add to responses after viewing

What do you suppose it could be? The one premise is that we may not have true free will if all outcomes are already known. If that were true, then it might possibly be argued that time travel might likewise be unchanged, as all things led up to the possibility of said time travel. There are many other theories, of course.

What are your thoughts? 

[imgnick]

In the time travel experiment, I don't think knowing the outcome is proof of predestination. I have to assume a lot of things (1. A grand unified theory that allows time travel 2. That the past is measurably exactly the same in absolutely all possible ways including quantum level and 3. Travel to the past itself does not introduce any change whatsoever). So simply watching a rerun of the past, whether live or on tape is basically the same thing. Even in this case, the ability to change anything at all in the past (including ambient room temperature) is not addressed, which I think is fundamental to the overall question.

 

I am on team free will myself. If for no other reason than because people who think we don't have free will argue with me as if I had the agency and free will to change my mind 😀

 

 

 

[imgnick]

Oh, and in response to the presupposition of a something or someone who "knows" the outcome, either a higher being exists in some way, OR the problem does not exist except if time travel is invented, thereby inventing the problem.

 

Weak monotheism (the universe has a will and wants...) winds up accidentally presupposed in many of these arguments, which was why i tried to pry as to if there were some kind of determiner in the original argument

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

47 minutes ago, imgnick said:

Oh, and in response to the presupposition of a something or someone who "knows" the outcome, either a higher being exists in some way, OR the problem does not exist except if time travel is invented, thereby inventing the problem.

 

Weak monotheism (the universe has a will and wants...) winds up accidentally presupposed in many of these arguments, which was why i tried to pry as to if there were some kind of determiner in the original argument

 

That would be me.  I had a simple proposition.  If the future exists in the same way as the past -- fixed and unchanging -- then free will might be an illusion. 

 

I was not talking about God.  I was not talking about God knowing the future.  The question in my mind was about the structure and nature of time.  We can not change the past.  Maybe, we also can't change the future -- for the same reason.

 

The illusion of free will would still exist.  For practical purposes, it would be the same.

 

Travel into the past would change nothing.  (IMO)  If I travel into the past, I become part of the past.  That means it already happened.  Travel into the future, means that the future already exists.  If the future already exists, then I can't change it.  I also can't change the present, because it's the future's past.

 

Still, there would be the illusion of free will.  Do I have free will?  Or do I have the illusion of free will?  It feels the same.  I'm not sure it actually matters.

 

It's all speculation.  I don't know.  I'm not arguing.

 

 

.

Edited August 8, 2020 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[imgnick]

1 minute ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

That would be me.  I had a simple proposition.  If the future exists in the same way as the past -- fixed and unchanging -- then free will might be an illusion. 

 

I was not talking about God.  I was not talking about God knowing the future.  The question in my mind was about the structure and nature of time.

 

Please, no offense was meant!

I was explaining to a response to my post why I was inquiring about whether  (and I am aware you had not yet responded to that question).

 

I tend to fish for limits and definitions because there are often hidden assertions (of which i provided an example which was no way meant to be an accusation to you in particular).

 

This is a big topic, studied both within and without of christian theology (mediaeval monks had some way groovy arguments on time travel btw).

 

And the statement regarding my position on free will was more about my own experiences trying to talk on this matter.

 

Again I apologize

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

7 minutes ago, imgnick said:

 

Please, no offense was meant!

I was explaining to a response to my post why I was inquiring about whether  (and I am aware you had not yet responded to that question).

 

I tend to fish for limits and definitions because there are often hidden assertions (of which i provided an example which was no way meant to be an accusation to you in particular).

 

This is a big topic, studied both within and without of christian theology (mediaeval monks had some way groovy arguments on time travel btw).

 

And the statement regarding my position on free will was more about my own experiences trying to talk on this matter.

 

Again I apologize

 

 

Nothing that you said was in any way offensive.  It's all friendly conversation.  All is well.

 

 

[Dan56]

10 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Travel into the past would change nothing.

 

If you could travel to the past and stop Booth from killing Lincoln or Oswald from killing Kennedy, your interference with what had happened could very well change what will happen.

That's what I meant by freewill and time being interlinked, what we do in the present determines the future.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

8 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

If you could travel to the past and stop Booth from killing Lincoln or Oswald from killing Kennedy, your interference with what had happened could very well change what will happen.

That's what I meant by freewill and time being interlinked, what we do in the present determines the future.

 

     Maybe.  We don't know that it's possible.  We don't know what would happen if we tried.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 9, 2020 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl