Do They Really Believe That?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

6 hours ago, Pete said:

So your saying killing non virgin brides would of stopped Jesus coming. Yeah right and I suppose wearing two types of cloth also would of stopped him. You can excuse any brutality that ran for years but I can't. 

I see some are wanting an apocalyptic war to bring him back again 

https://www.globalresearch.ca/millions-of-evangelical-christians-want-to-start-world-war-iii-to-speed-up-the-second-coming/29362

Sheer madness.

 

 

It's a given that the Christian crazies -- and the Jewish crazies -- have found each other and are working together.  For their own agenda.  They want the third Temple to go up.  On the site of the Temple Mount -- which is the site of the Al Axa Mosque.  The most toxic elements, of all three religions, converge at that point.  It is the world's deepest rabbit hole.  True madness.

 

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

5 hours ago, Pete said:

It seem the bible defence that without the bible how would atheists know good from evil Lays hol!ow. It seems believers are the ones who don't know and need a 2000 year old document to tell them. That is why they cannot see crushing the skull of a none virgin wife is wrong. 

 

We are talking about a religious faith; that is impervious to external reality.  It's too late to bring reason into this.  Much too late.  They believe.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

5 hours ago, Key said:

Two things about this comes to mind, Dan.

One, how do we know the Laws were given by God to Moses were there witnesses not of his circle? After all, he was then in a seat of power, so to speak. Or maybe the laws were dictated to the people by his "aides", with his trusting assumption they were telling what he received?

Second, I don't believe the Jews recognize the New Testament, with its attribution of authority given to Jesus. Thus, as "God's chosen people", they are still awaiting for a Messiah to come the first time. On this point, I could be mistaken, as I don't know anything about Judaism.

 

You are correct on both counts. 

• Judaism does not recognize the authority of Jesus or the New Testament.
• Jews -- at least the Orthodox -- continue to wait for the Messiah.  They are not waiting for Jesus.  Neither do they see New Testament prophecy in their Scriptures.  That is a Christian appropriation (theft).

Dan is operating out of standard Christian theology.  This states that the Old Testament (Jewish Covenant), has been replaced by the New Testament  (Christianity) . 

 

For the last 2,000 years, the Jewish world has disdained that theology.  This has been a theological stumbling block for Christians.  That the people of Jesus, rejected his claims.  It has been a rich cause of antisemitism.

 

We should keep this in historic context.

 

Islam claims to be the third Covenant in this sequence.  Just as Christianity has replaced Judaism -- Islam has replaced Christianity.  You must have noticed.  Dan is not concerned with the authority of Mohammed or the Koran.  That is how Jews feel about Jesus and the New Testament.

 

The Mormon Church -- The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints -- also claims to be the third Covenant.  The third Covenant is expressed as "The Book of Mormon" and two others.

 

Of course, there are other groups which build on Christianity.  For instance, Christian Science.

 

There are other groups which build on Islam.  For instance, B'Hai.  

 

 

 

Can you see where this is going?  Jews look at Christian claims of authority -- and Islamic claims of authority -- and are not impressed.  Or interested.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 25, 2020 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 hours ago, Pete said:

Judaism does not recognize Jesus as the messiah and he does not fulfill their scriptures on the topic. Fundies insist he does. Judaism have no records that Jesus existed or the events of his death like the temple curtain being ripped, darkness ascending, or the dead walking.

On your first point it seems with all at gods disposal a couple of stones were used to write with. Then there are so many laws that moses must of been the strongest man who ever lived or have been crushed under their weight.

 

 

Actually, traditional Judaism makes a distinction.  There is the written Law -- and the Oral tradition.  Both came down the mountain with Mosses.

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

19 hours ago, Pete said:

It's  funny but if the OT God was a human and went about saying kill without remorse or compassion or empathy, he would be labelled a psychopath.  To insist that someone had to die for each transgression and have his son die for that reason then they have a severe personality disorder. Yet, when they say they are God then all this is overlooked. I don't get it. They worship a psychopath and someone with severe personality problems. 

Yet, I just think people wanted to have law in a deeply religious population and what better way to control them by saying God said it. 

 

 

There is nothing new about pious fraud.

 

 

 

[Pete]

1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

You are correct on both counts. 

• Judaism does not recognize the authority of Jesus or the New Testament.
• Jews -- at least the Orthodox -- continue to wait for the Messiah.  They are not waiting for Jesus.  Neither do they see New Testament prophecy in their Scriptures.  That is a Christian appropriation (theft).

Dan is operating out of standard Christian theology.  This states that the Old Testament (Jewish Covenant), has been replaced by the New Testament  (Christianity) . 

 

For the last 2,000 years, the Jewish world has disdained that theology.  This has been a theological stumbling block for Christians.  That the people of Jesus, rejected his claims.  It has been a rich cause of antisemitism.

 

We should keep this in historic context.

 

Islam claims to be the third Covenant in this sequence.  Just as Christianity has replaced Judaism -- Islam has replaced Christianity.  You must have noticed.  Dan is not concerned with the authority of Mohammed or the Koran.  That is how Jews feel about Jesus and the New Testament.

 

The Mormon Church -- The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints -- also claims to be the third Covenant.  The third Covenant is expressed as "The Book of Mormon" and two others.

 

Of course, there are other groups which build on Christianity.  For instance, Christian Science.

 

There are other groups which build on Islam.  For instance, B'Hai.  

 

 

 

Can you see where this is going?  Jews look at Christian claims of authority -- and Islamic claims of authority -- and are not impressed.  Or interested.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

although Dan will totally disagree but the Evangelicals are a split off too. The church who debated what to believe under Constantine was the church of Rome. That church crushed the voice of others including the Jews so they could control things. It was not until Luther broke away did so many other church give birth, each claiming they more accurately interpreted the bible. It's been break away all down the line until you come to the church of Dan😀.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

10 minutes ago, Pete said:

although Dan will totally disagree but the Evangelicals are a split off too. The church who debated what to believe under Constantine was the church of Rome. That church crushed the voice of others including the Jews so they could control things. It was not until Luther broke away did so many other church give birth, each claiming they more accurately interpreted the bible. It's been break away all down the line until you come to the church of Dan😀.

 

 

Dan acts like his own denomination.  The obvious example, being this weird doctrine of his, about Noah's flood.  That it was a local event, instead of the World wide flood taught by the rest of Christianity.  

 

The Bible is literal, except where it isn't.  Dan knows which is which.

 

 

 

[Dan56]

15 hours ago, Pete said:

So your saying killing non virgin brides would of stopped Jesus coming. Yeah right and I suppose wearing two types of cloth also would of stopped him. You can excuse any brutality that ran for years but I can't. 

I see some are wanting an apocalyptic war to bring him back again 

https://www.globalresearch.ca/millions-of-evangelical-christians-want-to-start-world-war-iii-to-speed-up-the-second-coming/29362

Sheer madness.

 

I wasn't saying that at all.. The penalty for sin is why Christ came, its what he redeemed us from.

Some Christians are idiots and biblicaly illiterate. There won't be an apocalyptic war that ushers in the return of Christ. As Christ said, it will be as in the days of Noah, and the anti-Christ won't be warlike. There will never be a third Temple either.

 

13 hours ago, Key said:

Two things about this comes to mind, Dan.

One, how do we know the Laws were given by God to Moses were there witnesses not of his circle? After all, he was then in a seat of power, so to speak. Or maybe the laws were dictated to the people by his "aides", with his trusting assumption they were telling what he received?

Second, I don't believe the Jews recognize the New Testament, with its attribution of authority given to Jesus. Thus, as "God's chosen people", they are still awaiting for a Messiah to come the first time. On this point, I could be mistaken, as I don't know anything about Judaism.

 

Its received by faith... No, there were no non-Hebrew witnesses.

No, Judaism rejects Christ and the NT.. The Jews were looking for another earthly king, one who would physically deliver them from captivity (yet again). Even Judas thought Christ was the one who would liberate them from Roman rule. But prophecy proclaimed a spiritual deliverer, one who would defeat death, sin, and the devil.

[Dan56]

6 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

Dan acts like his own denomination.  The obvious example, being this weird doctrine of his, about Noah's flood.  That it was a local event, instead of the World wide flood taught by the rest of Christianity.  

 

The Bible is literal, except where it isn't.  Dan knows which is which.

 

 

If I'm not mistaken, you don't believe Noah's flood was world-wide either? You've stated that from a scientific perspective, it wouldn't have been possible.

When read correctly,  whenever the bibles speaks about all the erets, its simply referencing all the land that's relevant to the story being told, and not the entire earth. Whereas, the flood of Noah destroyed all the land possessed by the corrupted descendants of Adam.  

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

11 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

I wasn't saying that at all.. The penalty for sin is why Christ came, its what he redeemed us from.

Some Christians are idiots and biblicaly illiterate. There won't be an apocalyptic war that ushers in the return of Christ. As Christ said, it will be as in the days of Noah, and the anti-Christ won't be warlike. There will never be a third Temple either.

 

 

Its received by faith... No, there were no non-Hebrew witnesses.

No, Judaism rejects Christ and the NT.. The Jews were looking for another earthly king, one who would physically deliver them from captivity (yet again). Even Judas thought Christ was the one who would liberate them from Roman rule. But prophecy proclaimed a spiritual deliverer, one who would defeat death, sin, and the devil.

 

 

The Devil?  In Judaism?  You are misinformed.  The accuser -- Ha Satan -- shows up in Job.  He is not the Christian Devil.

 

 

 

 

[Dan56]

39 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

The Devil?  In Judaism?  You are misinformed.  The accuser -- Ha Satan -- shows up in Job.  He is not the Christian Devil.

 

 

You are misinformed, the same Satan that showed-up in Job was the same Satan that tempted Christ in the wilderness.

 

I know most here have no faith, but here's a true story about a proven Test of Faith by a Pennsylvania woman, who believed God would protect her....and He did.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/20/us/car-crash-god-pennsylvania/index.html 

I'm sure your non-believing attitudes will be severely shaken when you get some real modern day evidence that God is real and performed a miracle by protecting His own!!

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

59 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

You are misinformed, the same Satan that showed-up in Job was the same Satan that tempted Christ in the wilderness.

 

I know most here have no faith, but here's a true story about a proven Test of Faith by a Pennsylvania woman, who believed God would protect her....and He did.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/20/us/car-crash-god-pennsylvania/index.html 

I'm sure your non-believing attitudes will be severely shaken when you get some real modern day evidence that God is real and performed a miracle by protecting His own!!

 

 

Which part of -- not in Judaism -- has you confused?

 

 

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

11 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

If I'm not mistaken, you don't believe Noah's flood was world-wide either? You've stated that from a scientific perspective, it wouldn't have been possible.

When read correctly,  whenever the bibles speaks about all the erets, its simply referencing all the land that's relevant to the story being told, and not the entire earth. Whereas, the flood of Noah destroyed all the land possessed by the corrupted descendants of Adam.  

 

"If I'm not mistaken, you don't believe Noah's flood was world-wide either?"

The Bible is mythology.  It is not a source of truth and I do not take a lot of it seriously, on any level.  This is not about my personal belief.  I read the Bible.  I know what the Bible said about the Flood story.  The bulk of the Christian world, agrees with my understanding of that story.

 

"You've stated that from a scientific perspective, it wouldn't have been possible."

From a scientific perspective, the Flood story is impossible.  When science conflicts with the Bible, I go with science.  You obviously go with the Bible.  Attempting to harmonize them, by this silly cheery picking, is futile.

 

You might like to look up Ken Ham, and Answers in Genesis.  That is mainstream Christian Evangelical thought.

 

 

You seem confused about my belief in the Bible.  This is my favorite quote on the subject.

 

"The Bible is equal parts History, Science and Pizza."

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2020 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Pete]

Ha Satan worked with god as the accuser. Christianity invented the Christian notion of Satan. Christianity has suffered from a lack of knowledge about Judaism and so invented its own dialogue. 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

51 minutes ago, Pete said:

Ha Satan worked with god as the accuser. Christianity invented the Christian notion of Satan. Christianity has suffered from a lack of knowledge about Judaism and so invented its own dialogue. 

 

 

Yes.     

 

 

[cuchulain]

Christ was God on earth but had to redeem us from god's law?  No...

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

Aaron Ra -- an Atheist -- speaks about Satan.  

 

 

[Dan56]

14 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

When science conflicts with the Bible, I go with science.  You obviously go with the Bible.  Attempting to harmonize them, by this silly cheery picking, is futile

 

Scientific facts don't conflict with the bible. You simply prefer theories to the bible. Proper interpretation is not an attempt to harmonize anything, but rather an effort to properly understand what's written. If I interpreted the bible like you do, I wouldn't believe it either. Faith comes from hearing and understanding (Romans 10:17).

 

12 hours ago, Pete said:

Ha Satan worked with god as the accuser. Christianity invented the Christian notion of Satan. Christianity has suffered from a lack of knowledge about Judaism and so invented its own dialogue. 

 

Satan is not an entity conjured up by Christians, he is the same accuser and adversary in both testaments. And God does not work with Satan, they are opponents. If you paid attention to what's written, you'd know that. 

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." (Revelation 12: 9&10)

 

11 hours ago, cuchulain said:

Christ was God on earth but had to redeem us from god's law?  No...

 

He didn't have to redeem us (believers), but he did. Breaking a law requires punishment, "He hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many" (Isaiah 53). There you have it, and its not difficult to understand. "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission" (Hebrews 9:22). He didn't redeem us from the law, but for breaking the law! Yes...

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

Scientific facts don't conflict with the bible. You simply prefer theories to the bible. Proper interpretation is not an attempt to harmonize anything, but rather an effort to properly understand what's written. If I interpreted the bible like you do, I wouldn't believe it either. Faith comes from hearing and understanding (Romans 10:17).

 

 

Satan is not an entity conjured up by Christians, he is the same accuser and adversary in both testaments. And God does not work with Satan, they are opponents. If you paid attention to what's written, you'd know that. 

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." (Revelation 12: 9&10)

 

 

He didn't have to redeem us (believers), but he did. Breaking a law requires punishment, "He hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many" (Isaiah 53). There you have it, and its not difficult to understand. "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission" (Hebrews 9:22). He didn't redeem us from the law, but for breaking the law! Yes...

 

 

Scientific facts don't conflict with the bible.      

 

You simply prefer theories to the bible.      

 

Proper interpretation is not an attempt to harmonize anything, but rather an effort to properly understand what's written.      

 

If I interpreted the bible like you do, I wouldn't believe it either.      

 

Faith comes from hearing and understanding (Romans 10:17).      

 

 

In Job, Satan is God's servant.  Satan does nothing without God's permission -- then Satan follows God's instructions -- Including God's limits.  Satan is not God's enemy.  Satan is God's District Attorney.  God is the judge, who issues the orders and is obeyed by Satan.

 

This is what I find in the Jewish Scriptures.  I will heed the New Testament -- when you heed the Koran.

 

 

 

Job 1:6

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2020 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[cuchulain]

Yet more scientific illiteracy Dan.  Theory is scientific fact.  Like the theory of gravity... just realized the pointlessness of this.