If Christianity were proven true

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

9 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

Christ said that he was the Truth, and there's only one version of that... What if I'm wrong? I'm no worse off... What if your wrong?

 

 

Inquisitions were religious movements which may have invoked the name of Christ, but their actions demonstrated they weren't followers of Christ. So I agree, the justification of forcibly or violently cleansing or converting a society in the name of Christ is a complete distortion of his example and everything he taught. I also agree that Satan has and does attempt to contaminate the simple truth by defiling religion, its been his modus operandi from the beginning.

 

 

As I've repeated, while faith cannot be confirmed via objectionable evidence, it's not completely blind either. The bible says the truth is spiritually discerned and offers prophetic evidence to substantiate divine inspiration. But it does boil down to a choice where belief is required. For myself, religious factions or denominations aren't all  synonymous or representative of Christ, that realization was even observed by Christ with his assessment of the 7 churches in Revelation, where he was only satisfied with 2.

 

 

This is an argument.  Arguments are not objective, verifiable evidence.

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

An addendum:

 

Dan, there is also no reason to think that you -- or your group -- are part of that tiny minority -- that got it right.

 

 

 

[RevBogovac]

7 hours ago, Dan56 said:

[...] What if I'm wrong? I'm no worse off... [...]

 

Off course you are (worse off).... As cuchulain already said:  "Odin might be pissed at you when you get to Valhalla"...

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

11 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Christ said that he was the Truth, and there's only one version of that... What if I'm wrong? I'm no worse off... What if your wrong?

 

 

Inquisitions were religious movements which may have invoked the name of Christ, but their actions demonstrated they weren't followers of Christ. So I agree, the justification of forcibly or violently cleansing or converting a society in the name of Christ is a complete distortion of his example and everything he taught. I also agree that Satan has and does attempt to contaminate the simple truth by defiling religion, its been his modus operandi from the beginning.

 

 

As I've repeated, while faith cannot be confirmed via objectionable evidence, it's not completely blind either. The bible says the truth is spiritually discerned and offers prophetic evidence to substantiate divine inspiration. But it does boil down to a choice where belief is required. For myself, religious factions or denominations aren't all  synonymous or representative of Christ, that realization was even observed by Christ with his assessment of the 7 churches in Revelation, where he was only satisfied with 2.

 

 

What does this tell me?  That even then -- when Jesus was still walking around -- Speaking the same language as his audience -- people still couldn't agree what his teachings meant.

 

So, what makes you so sure that you have it right?  People who actually heard it, straight from Jesus, got it wrong  -- but you got it right?  Seriously?        

 

 

 

Objective -- Verifiable -- Evidence.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Dan56]

17 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

What does this tell me?  That even then -- when Jesus was still walking around -- Speaking the same language as his audience -- people still couldn't agree what his teachings meant.

 

So, what makes you so sure that you have it right?  People who actually heard it, straight from Jesus, got it wrong  -- but you got it right?  Seriously?   

 

 

Christ got it right, its up to every individual to align themselves with his teachings and example. Not understanding something does not condemn a person, nor does making mistakes. Denying Christ is what sinks your boat. Getting saved is not an intellectual test, its accepting his truth. 

[RevBogovac]

2 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Christ got it right, its up to every individual to align themselves with his teachings and example. Not understanding something does not condemn a person, nor does making mistakes. Denying Christ is what sinks your boat. Getting saved is not an intellectual test, its accepting his truth. 

 

 

Funny, that's exactly what my godfather (who's a "professional" criminal, and has been for the past 40 or so years, no pun intended) says... He goes to church every sunday for his "weekly spiritual bath" (and confessing past weeks "mistakes and accepting Christ's truth")... 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

5 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Christ got it right, its up to every individual to align themselves with his teachings and example. Not understanding something does not condemn a person, nor does making mistakes. Denying Christ is what sinks your boat. Getting saved is not an intellectual test, its accepting his truth. 

 

 

His truth?  Not the truth?  Never mind.     

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

4 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

 

Funny, that's exactly what my godfather (who's a "professional" criminal, and has been for the past 40 or so years, no pun intended) says... He goes to church every sunday for his "weekly spiritual bath" (and confessing past weeks "mistakes and accepting Christ's truth")... 

 

 

This is the structure of Christian theology.  Giving our sins to Christ, means no personal responsibility.  It's strange.  The same Christians, are the people talking about objective morality.  

 

What do they care about?  We must be willing to believe, without evidence.  We must be willing to ignore evidence, that suggests we are mistaken.  The frame of mind that every con artist exploits.  

 

It's Dan.     

 

 

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

 

Disproving God.     

 

 

 

 

 

[Dan56]

22 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

 

Funny, that's exactly what my godfather (who's a "professional" criminal, and has been for the past 40 or so years, no pun intended) says... He goes to church every sunday for his "weekly spiritual bath" (and confessing past weeks "mistakes and accepting Christ's truth")... 

 

Your godfather would be the walking definition of a hypocrite. As I wrote "its up to every individual to align themselves with his teachings and example". "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation" (Hebrews 10:26)

 

19 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

His truth?  Not the truth?  Never mind.     

 

For Christians, His Truth is the truth... And there is personal responsibility, we just aren't condemned for falling short.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

41 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

Your godfather would be the walking definition of a hypocrite. As I wrote "its up to every individual to align themselves with his teachings and example". "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation" (Hebrews 10:26)

 

 

For Christians, His Truth is the truth... And there is personal responsibility, we just aren't condemned for falling short.

 

  

You have already explained this.  A separate spiritual reality.     

 

Alright.     

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

 

How to convert an Atheist.

 

Since this thread is about proving the truth of Christianity --  What would it take?

 

 

 

 

 

[RevBogovac]

13 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

How to convert an Atheist.

 

Since this thread is about proving the truth of Christianity --  What would it take?

 

[...]

 

 

For most, there is no way to be "converted". As has been said before: even if there was prove, most atheists wouldn't even want to honour such an evil entity. Just consider those parasitic wasps that inject their eggs into caterpillar and whose larvae eat the poor thing alive from the inside out... What kind of sick being would "design" such a thing...?!?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

For most, there is no way to be "converted". As has been said before: even if there was prove, most atheists wouldn't even want to honour such an evil entity. Just consider those parasitic wasps that inject their eggs into caterpillar and whose larvae eat the poor thing alive from the inside out... What kind of sick being would "design" such a thing...?!?

 

 

It is beyond depravity.  True evil.  Remember, the designer would know, in perfect detail, about the resulting suffering.  All of it.

 

 

 

 

[Dan56]

On 10/14/2019 at 2:30 AM, RevBogovac said:

 

For most, there is no way to be "converted". As has been said before: even if there was prove, most atheists wouldn't even want to honour such an evil entity.

 

On 10/14/2019 at 5:11 AM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

It is beyond depravity.  True evil.  Remember, the designer would know, in perfect detail, about the resulting suffering.  All of it.

 

These views have been my point, you can't believe something you hate... Evil is the result of sin, this isn't God's good creation, its the fallen world. First creation, then corruption, then the curse, which includes thorns, bristles, parasites, mutations, telemarketers, etc. We chose the knowledge of good & evil, suffering and death are the evil side of that equation.

[cuchulain]

I don't hate Shintoism, asatru, Wicca, Judaism...why hate something you don't believe?  It's the followers that are loathe some, and the things they do in the name of their religion.  And even that is a minority of followers.  Most are content to mind their own business.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

 

These views have been my point, you can't believe something you hate... Evil is the result of sin, this isn't God's good creation, its the fallen world. First creation, then corruption, then the curse, which includes thorns, bristles, parasites, mutations, telemarketers, etc. We chose the knowledge of good & evil, suffering and death are the evil side of that equation.

 

 

There are two separate, distinct issues here.

 

1.  Does God exist?  God could exist.  There is no good reason to think so -- but God could exist.

 

2.  Is God -- as portrayed in the Bible -- evil?  Of course he is.  I read the Book.  I could say the same thing about other fictional characters.  Is Dracula evil?  Of course he is.  I read the book.

 

These are separate, distinct issues.  Since you don't make distinctions, of course, you are confused.  Yes.  I know.  All in or all out.  All black or all white.  All cold or all hot. 

 

The world is not a binary.  Some of us do shades of grey.  In fact -- a whole rainbow of colors.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, cuchulain said:

I don't hate Shintoism, asatru, Wicca, Judaism...why hate something you don't believe?  It's the followers that are loathe some, and the things they do in the name of their religion.  And even that is a minority of followers.  Most are content to mind their own business.

 

      

 

You can.  You are not trapped in Dan's binary.  In that separate reality, there is only one true religion -- which is his --  Which must be loved -- In which we must believe and have faith.  All the others are false.  It follows that all the followers of these false paths, need correction and instruction in the true path.  Because -- God.

 

 

 

 

 

[RevBogovac]

23 hours ago, Dan56 said:

On 10/14/2019 at 9:30 AM, RevBogovac said:

 

For most, there is no way to be "converted". As has been said before: even if there was prove, most atheists wouldn't even want to honour such an evil entity. Just consider those parasitic wasps that inject their eggs into caterpillar and whose larvae eat the poor thing alive from the inside out... What kind of sick being would "design" such a thing...?!?

 

[...]

 

These views have been my point, you can't believe something you hate... Evil is the result of sin, this isn't God's good creation, its the fallen world. First creation, then corruption, then the curse, which includes thorns, bristles, parasites, mutations, telemarketers, etc. We chose the knowledge of good & evil, suffering and death are the evil side of that equation.

 

Oh no, no, NO! You don't get to cherry-pick my quote (FTFY); you forgot "conveniently" the last half: in your vision/bible it is YOUR god who CREATED all living beings. The spider-wasp - in your vision/bible - is CREATED to inject its eggs into living hosts so her larvae can eat them alive from the inside out (that creator fully KNOWING the imposed suffering). PURE EVIL (not even mentioning his psychopathic and narcissistic morals; having bears maul people over "blasphemy".

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

That was a nice try.  A really nice try.  Alas, you have missed the cultural context that Dan is working under. 

 

Christian literalists tend to work with the calculations of Bishop Usher.  Creation happened in the year 4004 B.C.  Jewish fundamentalists do something similar.  The Jewish calendar dates back to Creation.  This is the year 5780.

 

I don't want to quibble about the details.  For Dan, Creation only happened about 6,000 years ago.  The Fall took place after the seventh day.  Death is an even more recent development.

 

Dan has already explained to us, that he lives in a spiritual reality -- that is different from our reality.  I have come to accept this as self evident.  He is divorced from our reality.  It follows that an argument based on science, facts, logic -- or even external reality -- will fail.

 

Your argument was excellent.  Your reasoning was solid.  It will fail.  Really.  It was a nice try.  It's Dan.    Even pointing out that insect life -- even in Genesis -- was around before  the Fall -- won't help.  It's Dan.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl