Genesis Chapter One

[Pastor Dave]

On 5/27/2019 at 4:34 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

No matter how we dance around it, Genesis has the Earth show up, before the Sun and other stars.  This violates planetary physics.

 

If that's how you choose to see it.

 

Parashah 1: B’resheet (In the beginning)

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. ² The earth was unformed and void

Maybe it simply means God created everything that is.

 

Quote

In addition, Plant life shows up before the Sun.  Trees and grass without Sunlight?  No.  Not even sea plankton. 

 

Light was created during the first yom

 

Therefore,  panspermia.

 

On 5/27/2019 at 10:48 PM, Dan56 said:

 

I never got that impression or even a hint that Murray was antisemitic or a white supremacist. There are some untrue attacks on the internet about him, but they are baseless opinions from partial statements made by Murray that were  taken way out of context.

 

I based my statement only on what I saw and heard when I watched the channel. Perhaps we have different definitions of what antisemitism consists of.

I see statements by many Christian leaders as being antisemitic. Some of the more common ones are (and I heard these on Murray's channel) "God is done with the Jews",  or even worse "Christians have replaced the Jews as God's chosen people". There are other similar statements that don't come to mind right now but you get the gist.

 

On 5/28/2019 at 3:18 AM, RevBogovac said:

 

Nice hoop! So the original writers were inspired by god, but god didn't think the writings were important enough to inspire the translators too...? Hmkay....

 

Sometimes there are no matching words in the language being translated to and if translators were to attempt to give every possible translation it would render the text unreadable and much, much, much longer.

 

On 5/31/2019 at 5:55 PM, cuchulain said:

In my opinion, any christian that doesnt believe in science should lose access to everything it provides...but i bet they'd clam up quick if that were the case.

 

How would you feel if a Christian were to say something similar, like "Any non Christian who doesn't believe in God should lose access to everything He provides" i bet you'd clam up quick if that were the case.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Pastor Dave said:

 

If that's how you choose to see it.

 

Parashah 1: B’resheet (In the beginning)

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. ² The earth was unformed and void

Maybe it simply means God created everything that is.

 

 

Light was created during the first yom

 

Therefore,  panspermia.

 

 

I based my statement only on what I saw and heard when I watched the channel. Perhaps we have different definitions of what antisemitism consists of.

I see statements by many Christian leaders as being antisemitic. Some of the more common ones are (and I heard these on Murray's channel) "God is done with the Jews",  or even worse "Christians have replaced the Jews as God's chosen people". There are other similar statements that don't come to mind right now but you get the gist.

 

 

Sometimes there are no matching words in the language being translated to and if translators were to attempt to give every possible translation it would render the text unreadable and much, much, much longer.

 

 

How would you feel if a Christian were to say something similar, like "Any non Christian who doesn't believe in God should lose access to everything He provides" i bet you'd clam up quick if that were the case.

 

 

External reality is not a choice.  The laws of physics are not part of mythology.

 

 

[Pastor Dave]

On 6/25/2019 at 9:00 PM, Coolhand said:

 

Hey brother,

 

So, "yom." This is a good example of how studying the original languages was of no help at all.

 

I have to disagree with you here brother. Without the study of the Hebrew (in most cases) it is possible for translators to be technically correct in their translation yet contextually inaccurate. While the English language contains maybe half a million words, Ancient Hebrew consists of less than nine thousand words. Words with multiple meanings are just more common in Hebrew. For me it seems that the more I learn about the Hebrew language the more I am able to understand the Bible.

While I feel the KJV is a wonderful translation it is just a translation. I feel the same about several other translations, they can aid in understanding but none are, IMO, definitive. You can only walk in the light that you have.

 

On 6/25/2019 at 9:00 PM, Coolhand said:

In this case I think the context is more helpful than the word study. "Morning and evening was the -----day." From the context it looks to me like it means day as in morning an evening, like a regular 24 hour day. Regarding other places in Genesis it looks to me like they have a similar range of meaning for "yom" that we do for day.

 

Ahhhh, Now you are getting into a better, more traditional, argument. The definite articles of evening and morning do seem to indicate a regular 24 hour day. (Oh by the way evening comes before morning in the text just as the dark preceded the light in the text.) Now we have to look at the text and notice that the sun was created during the forth yom, so ... how could there have been an evening and a morning without a sunset and a sunrise? This seems to indicate that they are being used figuratively. The start of the yom and the finish of the yom. Scripture itself sets this pattern for us.  Morning and evening are used figuratively in Psalm 30:5, Psalm 49:14,15, Psalm 90:6.  Thus, the evening and morning of creation can mean the start and end of the creative process that is attributed to that creation period.

 

Sixty seven verses in the Old Testament translate yom as time, four verses it is translated as year ( In I Kings 1:1, 2 Chronicles 21:19&20, Amos 4:4) , Eight times as age ( Genesis 18:11 and 24:1; Joshua 23:1 and 23:2 Genesis 21:2, Genesis 21:7 Genesis 47:28 Zechariah 8:4) once as ago (1 Samuel 9:20) Four times as always ( Deuteronomy 5:29, 6:24, 14:23, and in 2 Chronicles 18:7) three times yom is translated as season (Genesis 40:4, Joshua 24:7, 2 Chronicles 15:3) nineteen times yom is translated ever. When used in conjunction with the word dâbâr, yom is translated "chronicles" (27 times).  When used in conjunction with kôwl, yom is translated as "continually" (11 times).  Once, in Psalm 139:16, it is translated continuance (without the kôwl).

 

There are other good arguments against the day age theory. Perhaps you can find another.

 

BTW, I enjoy this (discussing doctrine) more than other types of discussions concerning the validity of scripture. Even if we don't see eye to eye we can still gather other viewpoints.

 

[Pastor Dave]

On 6/25/2019 at 9:00 PM, Coolhand said:

 

 

 

On 6/25/2019 at 9:00 PM, Coolhand said:

 

 

 

Edited July 24, 2019 by Pastor Dave
Double post, sorry.

[Pastor Dave]

2 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

External reality is not a choice.  The laws of physics are not part of mythology.

 

 

 

Ok, if that's how you choose to see it😁

[cuchulain]

11 hours ago, Pastor Dave said:

 

If that's how you choose to see it.

 

Parashah 1: B’resheet (In the beginning)

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. ² The earth was unformed and void

Maybe it simply means God created everything that is.

 

 

Light was created during the first yom

 

Therefore,  panspermia.

 

 

I based my statement only on what I saw and heard when I watched the channel. Perhaps we have different definitions of what antisemitism consists of.

I see statements by many Christian leaders as being antisemitic. Some of the more common ones are (and I heard these on Murray's channel) "God is done with the Jews",  or even worse "Christians have replaced the Jews as God's chosen people". There are other similar statements that don't come to mind right now but you get the gist.

 

 

Sometimes there are no matching words in the language being translated to and if translators were to attempt to give every possible translation it would render the text unreadable and much, much, much longer.

 

 

How would you feel if a Christian were to say something similar, like "Any non Christian who doesn't believe in God should lose access to everything He provides" i bet you'd clam up quick if that were the case.

Nope.  Because God is fictional and provides nothing.  Science provides the internet.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

9 hours ago, Pastor Dave said:

 

Ok, if that's how you choose to see it😁

 

 

 

A literal reading of Genesis as history, does not allow wiggle room.  The Earth is created alone in space -- three days -- or three yom -- before the Sun or any of the other stars.

 

What do you mean --if that is how I choose to see it?

 

Conflating the language of Bible mythology -- which is poetry -- with the language of physics -- which is science -- is silly.  Even this is not the worst of it.

 

What do we know about the Universe?  Billions of galaxies.  Billions of stars in each galaxy.  M ore stars in the Cosmos than Earth has grains of sand.  In the Bible, we are told some interesting things.  On the fourth day -- "He made the stars also."  That is some after thought.  Little twinkly things, placed on the Firmament, to decorate the night sky.  The Firmament?  The series of crystal spheres?

 

Which part of this, even begins to resemble external reality?  At best, we have the imagination, of people who didn't know where the Sun goes at night.  Or what the stars are.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 24, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

14 hours ago, Pastor Dave said:

 

If that's how you choose to see it.

 

Parashah 1: B’resheet (In the beginning)

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. ² The earth was unformed and void

Maybe it simply means God created everything that is.

 

 

Light was created during the first yom

 

Therefore,  panspermia.

 

 

I based my statement only on what I saw and heard when I watched the channel. Perhaps we have different definitions of what antisemitism consists of.

I see statements by many Christian leaders as being antisemitic. Some of the more common ones are (and I heard these on Murray's channel) "God is done with the Jews",  or even worse "Christians have replaced the Jews as God's chosen people". There are other similar statements that don't come to mind right now but you get the gist.

 

 

Sometimes there are no matching words in the language being translated to and if translators were to attempt to give every possible translation it would render the text unreadable and much, much, much longer.

 

 

How would you feel if a Christian were to say something similar, like "Any non Christian who doesn't believe in God should lose access to everything He provides" i bet you'd clam up quick if that were the case.

 

 

 

I can't even begin to estimate, how many times that Christians have said worse to me.  Starting with threats of eternal damnation.  Telling me that I'm not a real American, because I'm not Christian.  Telling me that I'm a fool.  Guess what?  I never clammed up.  

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 hours ago, cuchulain said:

Nope.  Because God is fictional and provides nothing.  Science provides the internet.

 

 

I'm going to quibble about your use of words.  Not fictional.  A fantasy.  It's a nuance.