Lessons In Apologetics, Part 1: Introduction & Agnosticism

[Dan56]

3 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

Yes, there is... the quotes are (by far!) not specific enough to be viewed as "fulfilled prophecies"; someone getting a death penalt for his political and/or religious believes?!? That's not a prophecy, that's a certainty (unfortunately)...

 

Psalm 22 is very specific in describing a crucifixion, which didn't even exist 1000 years prior when David wrote it; "they pierced my hands and my feet" (verse 16). Also consider Psalm 22:18; "They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture" compared to Mark 15:24; "And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take."  The Psalm not only describes a form of execution that didn't exist at the time it was written, but also accurately articulates the action of the Roman soldiers who gambled for his cloths... How specific is that?

[Dan56]

3 hours ago, cuchulain said:

Hence the lack of proof and my assertion that apologetics should apologize for trying to get us to believe without evidence and then acting like its our fault.  You did make a nice circle with the argument though.

 

There's plenty of evidence, you just prefer to discount it as fallacious. Numerous eyewitness accounts of those who knew and witnessed Christ. If you were a juror and heard 4 witnesses who all testified the same thing, you'd likely believe them. You can't "get" someone to believe, its a personal choice. But if the apostle accounts in the new testament were all lies, what possibly could have been their motivation, since nearly all of them were executed for their testimony. People who make up stories would quickly recant when faced with the alternative of a horrible death. 

 

36 minutes ago, cuchulain said:

 You never responded about Greek mythology...you DO believe in zeus because there are real places in those myths, right?

 

Christ was a man witnessed by many, the Greek gods weren't.. Keep in mind that the Pharisee's were aware of Jesus prophecy that he'd rise from the grave after 3 days, and they went through great pains to make sure that didn't happen by insisting Pilate guard his tomb. As I've said before; the graves of Buddhist, Confucius, and Muhammad are occupied, while the tomb of Jesus is empty.. That's no freak coincidence? The Pharisee's could have explained it away by presenting a body, so why didn't they?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Psalm 22 is very specific in describing a crucifixion, which didn't even exist 1000 years prior when David wrote it; "they pierced my hands and my feet" (verse 16). Also consider Psalm 22:18; "They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture" compared to Mark 15:24; "And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take."  The Psalm not only describes a form of execution that didn't exist at the time it was written, but also accurately articulates the action of the Roman soldiers who gambled for his cloths... How specific is that?

 

 

Ask any rabbi what Psalm 22 is about.  The answer will disappoint you.

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

There's plenty of evidence, you just prefer to discount it as fallacious. Numerous eyewitness accounts of those who knew and witnessed Christ. If you were a juror and heard 4 witnesses who all testified the same thing, you'd likely believe them. You can't "get" someone to believe, its a personal choice. But if the apostle accounts in the new testament were all lies, what possibly could have been their motivation, since nearly all of them were executed for their testimony. People who make up stories would quickly recant when faced with the alternative of a horrible death. 

 

 

Christ was a man witnessed by many, the Greek gods weren't.. Keep in mind that the Pharisee's were aware of Jesus prophecy that he'd rise from the grave after 3 days, and they went through great pains to make sure that didn't happen by insisting Pilate guard his tomb. As I've said before; the graves of Buddhist, Confucius, and Muhammad are occupied, while the tomb of Jesus is empty.. That's no freak coincidence? The Pharisee's could have explained it away by presenting a body, so why didn't they?

 

 

Assertions do not make it so.  There is no proof outside of Scripture that he existed.  Then again, if the story of this over whelming popularity is true -- how come the Romans had to bribe Judas -- just to point him out?

 

Seriously -- you can't have it both ways.

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2018 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

8 hours ago, cuchulain said:

I just have to ask...how do you live in southern illinois and not know metropolis is a real place?  They have Supermanfest every year.  And i could add popeye to the list...chester is also southern illinois and in comics.  And you think that defeats the point that just because your myths used real places they arent true?  You never responded about Greek mythology...you DO believe in zeus because there are real places in those myths, right?

 

Gotham is slang for New York City.     😄

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

22 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

No ones provoking you, so don't be paranoid.. And I'm fully aware that you don't care what I believe.. I don't see your point of view because you have none, you believe in nothing, nor do you care.. I don't say that to antagonize anyone, its just sad to me to see others going through life with no hope

 

 

This is generally how a debate ends with Atheist... They can't argue the bible, so they claim none of it happened.  You really can't prove anything that happened thousands of years ago, that's why I've always said its a matter of choice, on whether a person believes it or not.  I believe it and you guys don't, that's all there is to it.

 

 

Amazing.  Just amazing.  I will not be provoked.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2018 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Dan56]

6 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Ask any rabbi what Psalm 22 is about.  The answer will disappoint you.

 

I'm aware of the Jewish rendition of the Psalm, it doesn't disappoint me because they obviously need to interpret it differently, otherwise it legitimizes a Messiah that they reject. 

 

6 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Assertions do not make it so.  There is no proof outside of Scripture that he existed.  Then again, if the story of this over whelming popularity is true -- how come the Romans had to bribe Judas -- just to point him out?

 

Seriously -- you can't have it both ways.

 

The Roman's didn't bribe Judas, "Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders" (Matthew 27:3). Thousands came to hear Christ, "And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand" (John 6:10).. Crowds came to hear him nearly everywhere he went, so its your assertion that's wrong. And there's no proof that any peasant from Nazareth existed a couple thousand years ago, they didn't keep or preserve records like that. However, the historian Flavius Josephus in his work 'Antiquities of the Jews' mentioned Christ, along with several others. http://www.provethebible.net/T2-Divin/D-0201.htm

So again, its your assertion that's wrong.. Many Atheist and Agnostics believe Jesus existed, so I suspect your in the minority even among them?

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

8 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

I'm aware of the Jewish rendition of the Psalm,

 

1.   it doesn't disappoint me because they obviously need to interpret it differently, otherwise it legitimizes a Messiah that they reject. 

 

 

The Roman's didn't bribe Judas, "Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders" (Matthew 27:3). Thousands came to hear Christ, "And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand" (John 6:10).. Crowds came to hear him nearly everywhere he went, so its your assertion that's wrong. And there's no proof that any peasant from Nazareth existed a couple thousand years ago, they didn't keep or preserve records like that. However, the historian Flavius Josephus in his work 'Antiquities of the Jews' mentioned Christ, along with several others. http://www.provethebible.net/T2-Divin/D-0201.htm

So again, its your assertion that's wrong..

 

2.   Many Atheist and Agnostics believe Jesus existed, so I suspect your in the minority even among them?

 

 

 

1.  You're saying that Jews need to interpret their Scriptures, according to your understanding.  No.  They don't.

 

1.1  This much is true.  There is no proof that Jesus existed.

 

2.  Your understanding of what Atheists and Agnostics "believe", leaves much to be desired.  As to what you suspect about me.......        You haven't gotten it right yet.

 

 

[Dan56]

4 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

1.  You're saying that Jews need to interpret their Scriptures, according to your understanding.  No.  They don't.

 

1.1  This much is true.  There is no proof that Jesus existed.

 

2.  Your understanding of what Atheists and Agnostics "believe", leaves much to be desired.  As to what you suspect about me.......        You haven't gotten it right yet.

 

 

 

I didn't say that at all.... My point was that they can't interpret Psalm 22 as a prophecy of Christ without nullifying their own belief.

 

Without a birth certificate, there would be no proof that you ever existed a couple thousand years from now. Many people acknowledged Christ existed, but there are no government records from that era listing every citizen.

 

What's to understand about Atheism? They don't believe in anything (no gods).. And Agnostics are just clueless, they don't know and don't care. Nothing difficult to understand about people who believe in nothing divine.

[RevBogovac]

On 11/27/2018 at 6:53 PM, Dan56 said:

 

Psalm 22 is very specific in describing a crucifixion, which didn't even exist 1000 years prior when David wrote it; "they pierced my hands and my feet" (verse 16). Also consider Psalm 22:18; "They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture" compared to Mark 15:24; "And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take."  The Psalm not only describes a form of execution that didn't exist at the time it was written, but also accurately articulates the action of the Roman soldiers who gambled for his cloths... How specific is that?

 

And again you're cherrypicking.... piercing of any body parts for that matter has been done for as long as people are using "tools", no crucifixion in there whatsoever. Not to mention the splitting of "profits" and "gambling"... no prophecy whatsoever.

[RevBogovac]

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

[...] Nothing difficult to understand about people who believe in nothing divine.

 

Wow, just wow. You must be a genuine brain surgeon who does rocket science for a hobby...

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

I didn't say that at all.... My point was that they can't interpret Psalm 22 as a prophecy of Christ without nullifying their own belief.

 

Without a birth certificate, there would be no proof that you ever existed a couple thousand years from now. Many people acknowledged Christ existed, but there are no government records from that era listing every citizen.

 

What's to understand about Atheism? They don't believe in anything (no gods).. And Agnostics are just clueless, they don't know and don't care. Nothing difficult to understand about people who believe in nothing divine.

 

 

Dude.  Do you know how long Jews have been reciting the 22nd Psalm?  For a lot longer than Christianity existed.  Way before Jesus.  Guess what?  Rabbis can still explain the 22nd Psalm, without negating their faith.  What's wrong with you?

 

Two thousand years from now, nobody will have a reason to know about me.  The Risen Christ?  If God cared, there would be objective proof.  Of course, a non-existent God -- or a non-existent Christ -- would explain everything.

 

And yet, you haven't gotten it right yet.  Care to try again?

 

 

 

[Dan56]

8 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

And again you're cherrypicking.... piercing of any body parts for that matter has been done for as long as people are using "tools", no crucifixion in there whatsoever. Not to mention the splitting of "profits" and "gambling"... no prophecy whatsoever.

 

And you must be blind to what's written? "They pierced my hands and my feet" is very specific, its what's done to a person being crucified.. Your attempting to explain away the obvious.. And "casting lots" is gambling, similar to throwing dice for his cloths.. Read Isaiah 53 and tell me who that chapter is describing?

 

8 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

Wow, just wow. You must be a genuine brain surgeon who does rocket science for a hobby...

 

Don't know what that means, but it doesn't take a brain surgeon to know Atheist believe in no gods and Agnostics think nothing is known or can be known about the existence of God.. Why do you think that's so hard to comprehend? Your comment doesn't argue the fact, but if you think I'm wrong, please explain what divine Beings Atheist and Agnostics accept as gods.

[Dan56]

8 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Dude.  Do you know how long Jews have been reciting the 22nd Psalm?  For a lot longer than Christianity existed.  Way before Jesus.  Guess what?  Rabbis can still explain the 22nd Psalm, without negating their faith.  What's wrong with you?

 

Two thousand years from now, nobody will have a reason to know about me.  The Risen Christ?  If God cared, there would be objective proof.  Of course, a non-existent God -- or a non-existent Christ -- would explain everything.

 

And yet, you haven't gotten it right yet.  Care to try again?

 

Again, I didn't state that Rabbis can't explain Psalm 22, I said they can't interpret it like Christians without recognizing Christ.. Nothing wrong with me, it just requires more than one dimensional thinking to understand what I've been writing about. For a believer, a risen Christ is objective proof, and a non-existent Christ does explain his divinity, it was his greatest miracle.. And yes, I've gotten it right, Atheist don't believe God exist and Agnostics don't know if God exist.. Absolutely nothing complicated about that at all.

[RevBogovac]

6 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

And you must be blind to what's written? "They pierced my hands and my feet" is very specific, its what's done to a person being crucified.. Your attempting to explain away the obvious.. And "casting lots" is gambling, similar to throwing dice for his cloths.. Read Isaiah 53 and tell me who that chapter is describing?

 

 

Don't know what that means, but it doesn't take a brain surgeon to know Atheist believe in no gods and Agnostics think nothing is known or can be known about the existence of God.. Why do you think that's so hard to comprehend? Your comment doesn't argue the fact, but if you think I'm wrong, please explain what divine Beings Atheist and Agnostics accept as gods.

 

Sure, you're absolutely right (no use arguing with you). But for the rest: a lot more activities involve piercing hands and feet and gambling is a lot older than 2.000 years... 

 

It means I find you quite a belittling person; saying there is nothing "complicated" about those groups of people. 

But you just keep on believing terrorist propaganda written out of context serving a bunch of power hungry individuals (read up on Constantin with regards to the bible).

 

[Dan56]

4 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

Sure, you're absolutely right (no use arguing with you). But for the rest: a lot more activities involve piercing hands and feet and gambling is a lot older than 2.000 years... 

 

It means I find you quite a belittling person; saying there is nothing "complicated" about those groups of people. 

But you just keep on believing terrorist propaganda written out of context serving a bunch of power hungry individuals (read up on Constantin with regards to the bible).

 

 

Its fine with me if you think piercing a mans hands and feet have nothing to do with crucifixion. If you honestly think it was referring to some other recreational activity, I can't argue with that. And my point wasn't that gambling was thousands of years old, but that a prophecy predicted a specific act where the tormentors of Christ gambled for his cloak.. But I understand that non-believers chalk it off as just one heck of a coincidence, and then continue to ask for evidence?

 

Atheist don't believe in any gods and Agnostics don't believe the existence of God can be known.. There's nothing belittling or complicated about it.. If you think I'm wrong, correct me by stating what you think each of those groups actually believe in regards to God/gods. You guys act insulted, but have no rebuttal, and that silence is confirmation that my definition is correct.

 

Christianity promotes the belief and promise of everlasting life, where no pain or sorrow exist. How you misconstrue that faith into terrorist propaganda is beyond me? And Constantine was a Roman Emperor who wasn't mentioned in the bible. Christians believe in the teachings and life of Christ, not religious leaders or dictators who only seek to empower themselves. 

[cuchulain]

It also promotes a hell, which is the terrorist part we keep referring to.  Just because you ignore thousands of years of terrorist threat doesn't negate it.

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

4 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Its fine with me if you think piercing a mans hands and feet have nothing to do with crucifixion. If you honestly think it was referring to some other recreational activity, I can't argue with that. And my point wasn't that gambling was thousands of years old, but that a prophecy predicted a specific act where the tormentors of Christ gambled for his cloak.. But I understand that non-believers chalk it off as just one heck of a coincidence, and then continue to ask for evidence?

 

Atheist don't believe in any gods and Agnostics don't believe the existence of God can be known.. There's nothing belittling or complicated about it.. If you think I'm wrong, correct me by stating what you think each of those groups actually believe in regards to God/gods. You guys act insulted, but have no rebuttal, and that silence is confirmation that my definition is correct.

 

Christianity promotes the belief and promise of everlasting life, where no pain or sorrow exist. How you misconstrue that faith into terrorist propaganda is beyond me? And Constantine was a Roman Emperor who wasn't mentioned in the bible. Christians believe in the teachings and life of Christ, not religious leaders or dictators who only seek to empower themselves. 

 

 

👿              

 

 

These terrorist threats.

 

 

[RevBogovac]

15 hours ago, Dan56 said:

[...] Atheist don't believe in any gods and Agnostics don't believe the existence of God can be known.. There's nothing belittling or complicated about it.. If you think I'm wrong, correct me by stating what you think each of those groups actually believe in regards to God/gods. You guys act insulted, but have no rebuttal, and that silence is confirmation that my definition is correct. [...]

 

You seem to forget that we come form an age where distancing oneself from "the church" was a very dangerous activity. These Atheists and Agnostics do not take that lightly, au contraire; they - on average - put in a lot of very complicated research and thought into that (quite a lot more than most "believers" most of the time...). Very often putting hteir own lives indanger (even nowadays in some part of the world) because of religious fanatics. 

 

You insult the whole group by just brushing that of as "not complicated"... but I am not surprised you do not see that.

[RevBogovac]

15 hours ago, Dan56 said:

[...] Christianity promotes the belief and promise of everlasting life, where no pain or sorrow exist. How you misconstrue that faith into terrorist propaganda is beyond me? And Constantine was a Roman Emperor who wasn't mentioned in the bible. Christians believe in the teachings and life of Christ, not religious leaders or dictators who only seek to empower themselves. 

 

Boy, do you lack social, political and historic perspective; "promoting" and "promis[ing] everlasting life, where no pain or sorrow exist" is only possible because there is a contrast with damnation, eternal hell and all that. Classical example of power-hungry power-play... creating a non-existent problem (damnation) to offer a non-existent solution. A very old (and obviously - you being the perfect example) and quite effective strategy. 

 

If you do not know how Constantine (having selected which books to add to the bible, which to have rewritten, and which to scrap to serve his own [and his political elite's] purpose)  comes into the picture... well, that actually is history (well documented, researched, and published for peer review).

Edited November 30, 2018 by RevBogovac