Lessons In Apologetics, Part 1: Introduction & Agnosticism

[RevBogovac]

18 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

For these stories to be meaningful, they must be plausible.  So, the Crucifixion takes place, the tombs open and the zombies start walking about among the living.  Just a normal day in Jerusalem.  No source outside of Scripture thought it was worth mentioning.  Nobody noticed the zombies?  There was no investigation?  Nobody wrote about it?  Nobody thought to bring in the military to restore order?  No panic?  

 

 

 

 

There is a distinction to be made here: there is the evidence from multiple sources on a philosopher named Jesus from a place called Nazareth who preached equality (and never said only he was the son of God) and got the death sentence for it (I would compare him to some ancient pacifistic Che Guevara, and "believe" in his existence as much as I do in - for instance - Socrat or Confusius...); and, some made up story to "sanctify" him about two centuries after his death (sentence) by a group of power-hungry individuals at the death bed of (one of) the last (Eastern) Roman emperor... these last stories (about the zombies and such) do not do the Christian philosophy (that was the basis for our current day Western society) a lot of good, nowadays... 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

57 minutes ago, RevBogovac said:

 

 

There is a distinction to be made here: there is the evidence from multiple sources on a philosopher named Jesus from a place called Nazareth who preached equality (and never said only he was the son of God) and got the death sentence for it (I would compare him to some ancient pacifistic Che Guevara, and "believe" in his existence as much as I do in - for instance - Socrat or Confusius...); and, some made up story to "sanctify" him about two centuries after his death (sentence) by a group of power-hungry individuals at the death bed of (one of) the last (Eastern) Roman emperor... these last stories (about the zombies and such) do not do the Christian philosophy (that was the basis for our current day Western society) a lot of good, nowadays... 

 

 

 

I expect there were any number of preachers and miracle men, who had their stories merge over the years.

 

There were also the factional conflicts between the Peter and Paul movements.

 

There were also the political manipulations on the part of the Roman government, who found it expedient to have a pacifist movement.

 

And the political expediency of various groups, who found it politic, to blame the death of Jesus on Jews,  rather than the Roman government.

 

And the new Church, that enjoyed political power from Constantine, over the other movements.  They did extensive rewrites and suppression.

 

The truth of what actually happened, has been lost to us.  Between the pious fraud, the political manipulation and confusion, the mistakes, bad copies, translation errors, etc. -- the truth has been lost.

 

 

 

[cuchulain]

On 11/22/2018 at 1:13 AM, Dan56 said:

 

God could convince us? You mean like if He actually appeared here as a man, performed miracles and rose from the dead.. If that didn't persuade people, what would? God doesn't care? Consider that He was beaten and hung on a cross for our sake's (remission of our sins). What more could demonstrate that God cares?

 

Perhaps its not so much about convincing, as it is about recognizing the truth... The truth is in the message.

 

 

 

17 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

I never said I saw it, my point was simply that the story was preserved and relayed to us. Some accept and believe it, while other ignore and reject it.. As I mentioned, for me  the Truth is in the message. One thing that also establishes a truth is the testimony of those who witnessed it, but of course, if you choose to disregard all of that, it would be meaningless. As Jonathan stated; Its not about arguing over evidence, but rather recognizing a truth and accepting it by faith.. If something makes sense and answers my questions satisfactorily, I have no trouble accepting it as factual.

 

Imo, "Apologetics" would be a more applicable term for those trying to disprove God, because they have no evidence, just theory.

See what i mean about blaming those who don't believe?  "its not so much about convincing as recognizing the truth" implies we aren't doing our part. 

Quote 2, some accept and believe while others ignore and reject...if you choose to disregard...

 

All of your posts seem to have built in language like this, an attempt to shift or assign blame for not believing as if its a perfect and clear message we deliberately fail to grasp.  What's perfect and clear about a message with literally thousands of interpretations and thus denominations?  Biblical contradiction with reality, considering 1 corinthians 1:10, at least my interpretation.  

 still as has been stated to me by christians, songster in this thread, and i apply to allegedly perfect god...gods lack of ability to communicate effectively doesn't place a burden on the recipient of the message to properly interpret and apply it, its a failure to communicate from a being incapable of failure...or evidence that your mythology is flawed.

 

Edited November 23, 2018 by cuchulain

[Dan56]

On 11/22/2018 at 8:29 PM, cuchulain said:

You cannot prove that the story was preserved in tact, that is...not changed.  In fact, in previous posts, you have admitted to scribal error.  Have you ever investigated the differences in the KJV vs earlier works?  Or those earlier works vs even earlier ones?  

 

As for your statement, "if something makes sense and answers my questions..."...you really think bible stories make sense?  I don't see it.

 

There are over 5,000 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. We have so many copies of the New Testament that there is no doubt about what they say on any Christian doctrine. While many copies have textual copyist errors, all of the manuscripts have basically the same words, with a difference of only 2.6%, most of which don't alter the context of what's being said. Many text variations are due to Alexandrian vs.Byzantine issues. Copies of the Bible dating to the 14th century A.D. are nearly identical in content to copies from the 3rd century A.D.. The sheer volume of biblical manuscripts makes it simple to recognize any attempts to distort God’s Word. There is no major doctrine of the bible that is put in doubt as a result of the minor differences that exist between manuscripts. I favor the KJV because its easily checked with a good Greek to English and Hebrew to English concordance. And "Yes", I really believe the stories make sense when they're studied and understood.

 

23 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

You continue to misrepresent Atheism.  Nobody has to disprove the existence of God

 

My point was that Atheist believe no God exist, but they have no evidence to prove it.  That doesn't misrepresent anything, it just puts you in the same boat as Christian apologetics. You have nothing more than a theory you can't prove or substantiate. 

 

8 hours ago, cuchulain said:

 

See what i mean about blaming those who don't believe?  "its not so much about convincing as recognizing the truth" implies we aren't doing our part. 

Quote 2, some accept and believe while others ignore and reject...if you choose to disregard...

 

All of your posts seem to have built in language like this, an attempt to shift or assign blame for not believing as if its a perfect and clear message we deliberately fail to grasp.  What's perfect and clear about a message with literally thousands of interpretations and thus denominations?  Biblical contradiction with reality, considering 1 corinthians 1:10, at least my interpretation.  

 still as has been stated to me by christians, songster in this thread, and i apply to allegedly perfect god...gods lack of ability to communicate effectively doesn't place a burden on the recipient of the message to properly interpret and apply it, its a failure to communicate from a being incapable of failure...or evidence that your mythology is flawed.

 

 

Not recognizing something that I see as truthful is not a matter of assigning blame towards those who see it differently.. I reject the Koran because I don't believe it, not because I don't grasp its message. Its not a matter of intellect, its about accepting something we find believable or rejecting it because we find it unbelievable. Jesus said, "I am the Truth" (John 14:6), Pilate (an intelligent educated man) asked Jesus, "What is truth" (John 18:38). The Truth was standing right in front of him and he didn't recognize it. This wasn't a failure of Christ (God) to communicate, but a reluctance of Pilate to consider it. Billions of people have understood the simple words of Christ because his message isn't complicated, so I don't see the logic in blaming God for a failure to communicate.   

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

There are over 5,000 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. We have so many copies of the New Testament that there is no doubt about what they say on any Christian doctrine. While many copies have textual copyist errors, all of the manuscripts have basically the same words, with a difference of only 2.6%, most of which don't alter the context of what's being said. Many text variations are due to Alexandrian vs.Byzantine issues. Copies of the Bible dating to the 14th century A.D. are nearly identical in content to copies from the 3rd century A.D.. The sheer volume of biblical manuscripts makes it simple to recognize any attempts to distort God’s Word. There is no major doctrine of the bible that is put in doubt as a result of the minor differences that exist between manuscripts. I favor the KJV because its easily checked with a good Greek to English and Hebrew to English concordance. And "Yes", I really believe the stories make sense when they're studied and understood.

 

My point was that Atheist believe no God exist, but they have no evidence to prove it.  That doesn't misrepresent anything, it just puts you in the same boat as Christian apologetics. You have nothing more than a theory you can't prove or substantiate. 

 

 

Not recognizing something that I see as truthful is not a matter of assigning blame towards those who see it differently.. I reject the Koran because I don't believe it, not because I don't grasp its message. Its not a matter of intellect, its about accepting something we find believable or rejecting it because we find it unbelievable. Jesus said, "I am the Truth" (John 14:6), Pilate (an intelligent educated man) asked Jesus, "What is truth" (John 18:38). The Truth was standing right in front of him and he didn't recognize it. This wasn't a failure of Christ (God) to communicate, but a reluctance of Pilate to consider it. Billions of people have understood the simple words of Christ because his message isn't complicated, so I don't see the logic in blaming God for a failu

 

 

You still can't tell the difference between non-belief and dis-belief.  It's a simple enough distinction, but you obviously don't care, so I will let it go;  rather than get sucked into an endless argument.  You can't define God.  You can't define God's properties -- and you want me to disprove God's existence.  If you could prove that a god existed, you still wouldn't have proof that it was your God that existed.  And you want me to disprove your God's existence.

 

So much heat, over something so trivial.  This is why I've moved onto Apatheism.  Because it doesn't matter whether or not  God exists.  Not even whether or not your God exists. (distinct from all the other versions)

 

Before you dash off your Scriptural wisdom in response -- try to remember -- I've read the Book.  

 

 

 

[cuchulain]

14 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

There are over 5,000 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. We have so many copies of the New Testament that there is no doubt about what they say on any Christian doctrine. While many copies have textual copyist errors, all of the manuscripts have basically the same words, with a difference of only 2.6%, most of which don't alter the context of what's being said. Many text variations are due to Alexandrian vs.Byzantine issues. Copies of the Bible dating to the 14th century A.D. are nearly identical in content to copies from the 3rd century A.D.. The sheer volume of biblical manuscripts makes it simple to recognize any attempts to distort God’s Word. There is no major doctrine of the bible that is put in doubt as a result of the minor differences that exist between manuscripts. I favor the KJV because its easily checked with a good Greek to English and Hebrew to English concordance. And "Yes", I really believe the stories make sense when they're studied and understood.

 

 

My point was that Atheist believe no God exist, but they have no evidence to prove it.  That doesn't misrepresent anything, it just puts you in the same boat as Christian apologetics. You have nothing more than a theory you can't prove or substantiate. 

 

 

Not recognizing something that I see as truthful is not a matter of assigning blame towards those who see it differently.. I reject the Koran because I don't believe it, not because I don't grasp its message. Its not a matter of intellect, its about accepting something we find believable or rejecting it because we find it unbelievable. Jesus said, "I am the Truth" (John 14:6), Pilate (an intelligent educated man) asked Jesus, "What is truth" (John 18:38). The Truth was standing right in front of him and he didn't recognize it. This wasn't a failure of Christ (God) to communicate, but a reluctance of Pilate to consider it. Billions of people have understood the simple words of Christ because his message isn't complicated, so I don't see the logic in blaming God for a failure to communicate.   

Since you can't prove Pilate said or did that I call it mythology...irrelevant at that.

[Dan56]

23 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

You can't define God.

 

God isn't a definition... Nonetheless, I don't need to define God, Christ was the living manifestation of God, and that's my only truth.

 

12 hours ago, cuchulain said:

Since you can't prove Pilate said or did that I call it mythology...irrelevant at that.

 

I can't prove Lincoln delivered the Gettysburg Address either, but I'm guessing you believe he said it.. One man's truth is another man's mythology.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

God isn't a definition... Nonetheless, I don't need to define God, Christ was the living manifestation of God, and that's my only truth.

 

 

I can't prove Lincoln delivered the Gettysburg Address either, but I'm guessing you believe he said it.. One man's truth is another man's mythology.

 

 

It's a standard statement.  So, where does this leave us?  It can't be defined.  It can't be understood by a finite mind.  It's existence can't possibly matter.

 

[cuchulain]

8 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

God isn't a definition... Nonetheless, I don't need to define God, Christ was the living manifestation of God, and that's my only truth.

 

 

I can't prove Lincoln delivered the Gettysburg Address either, but I'm guessing you believe he said it.. One man's truth is another man's mythology.

There is a vast difference in the claim of a man said something mundane and normal vs magical and divine.  See, Hercules is mythology in that he's the son of a god who did miraculous things and the stories were written by people who claimed it was truth.  Sound familiar?

[Dan56]

6 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

So, where does this leave us?  It can't be defined.  It can't be understood by a finite mind.  It's existence can't possibly matter.

 

I reckon it leaves you in a quagmire, while leaving me comforted by something that gives me hope.. While we can't possibly comprehend the depths of God, we can certainly understand what He's chosen to reveal to us.. If God's existence doesn't matter, neither does ours.. That's how I look at it, God created us for His pleasure (Revelation 4:11).

 

24 minutes ago, cuchulain said:

There is a vast difference in the claim of a man said something mundane and normal vs magical and divine.

 

You wrote; "Since you can't prove Pilate said or did that I call it mythology".  Pilate like Lincoln, worked for government, neither did anything divine or magical, yet you believe one and not the other.. I guess we each believe what rings true to us, we form opinions, reach different conclusions, and discern what's true or false from the information available to us.

 

As I've stated before, all the  archaeological evidence substantiates bible stories, all the cities and places were not fabricated lies.. In 1961 archaeologists even found a stone in Caesarea that bore the name of Pontius Pilate, the fifth governor of Judaea..  So this lends credibility that the gospel writers were not creating mythical characters or places.  

[cuchulain]

52 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

I reckon it leaves you in a quagmire, while leaving me comforted by something that gives me hope.. While we can't possibly comprehend the depths of God, we can certainly understand what He's chosen to reveal to us.. If God's existence doesn't matter, neither does ours.. That's how I look at it, God created us for His pleasure (Revelation 4:11).

 

 

You wrote; "Since you can't prove Pilate said or did that I call it mythology".  Pilate like Lincoln, worked for government, neither did anything divine or magical, yet you believe one and not the other.. I guess we each believe what rings true to us, we form opinions, reach different conclusions, and discern what's true or false from the information available to us.

 

As I've stated before, all the  archaeological evidence substantiates bible stories, all the cities and places were not fabricated lies.. In 1961 archaeologists even found a stone in Caesarea that bore the name of Pontius Pilate, the fifth governor of Judaea..  So this lends credibility that the gospel writers were not creating mythical characters or places.  

The cities of greek and roman and even celtic mythology have also been substantiated...so have locations in the superman comics, and numerous other works of fiction.  This is not an acceptable test for truth, unless you believe everything on the same premise its called special pleading.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

I reckon it leaves you in a quagmire, while leaving me comforted by something that gives me hope.. While we can't possibly comprehend the depths of God, we can certainly understand what He's chosen to reveal to us.. If God's existence doesn't matter, neither does ours.. That's how I look at it, God created us for His pleasure (Revelation 4:11).

 

 

You wrote; "Since you can't prove Pilate said or did that I call it mythology".  Pilate like Lincoln, worked for government, neither did anything divine or magical, yet you believe one and not the other.. I guess we each believe what rings true to us, we form opinions, reach different conclusions, and discern what's true or false from the information available to us.

 

As I've stated before, all the  archaeological evidence substantiates bible stories, all the cities and places were not fabricated lies.. In 1961 archaeologists even found a stone in Caesarea that bore the name of Pontius Pilate, the fifth governor of Judaea..  So this lends credibility that the gospel writers were not creating mythical characters or places.  

 

 

It was Aron Ra who noted that -- future archaeologists might dig up New York City.  That still wouldn't prove that Spiderman was real.

 

On a related note, there are elements of New York City in the original Planet of the Apes movies.

 

Batman operates out of "Gotham".

 

Of course, the Bible mentions real places.  Most works of fiction name real places.

 

Edited November 25, 2018 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

1.  I reckon it leaves you in a quagmire, while leaving me comforted by something that gives me hope..

 

2.  While we can't possibly comprehend the depths of God, we can certainly understand what He's chosen to reveal to us..

 

2.1  If God's existence doesn't matter, neither does ours..

 

3.  That's how I look at it, God created us for His pleasure (Revelation 4:11).

 

 

You wrote; "Since you can't prove Pilate said or did that I call it mythology".  Pilate like Lincoln, worked for government, neither did anything divine or magical, yet you believe one and not the other.. I guess we each believe what rings true to us, we form opinions, reach different conclusions, and discern what's true or false from the information available to us.

 

As I've stated before, all the  archaeological evidence substantiates bible stories, all the cities and places were not fabricated lies.. In 1961 archaeologists even found a stone in Caesarea that bore the name of Pontius Pilate, the fifth governor of Judaea..  So this lends credibility that the gospel writers were not creating mythical characters or places.  

 

 

1.  Why would I be in  quagmire?  It's your problem.  Not mine.  Do you think I care, about what your God wants?

 

2.  What a great reason not to care.  If it mattered to your God, we would have that capacity.

 

2.1  Speak for yourself.

 

3.  In ancient Greece, they had a slightly different lament.  "The gods use us for their sport."  Maybe you find that comforting -- plaything of your god.  Perhaps you will be thrown overboard, like Jonah; or covered in boils, like Job.  Possibly thrown to the lions, for the amusement of the Romans -- and God.

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2018 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Dan56]

12 hours ago, cuchulain said:

The cities of greek and roman and even celtic mythology have also been substantiated...so have locations in the superman comics, and numerous other works of fiction.  This is not an acceptable test for truth, unless you believe everything on the same premise its called special pleading.

 

Superman = Metropolis, Batman = Gotham, the characters were as fake as the non-existing cities.. My point was that the stone found in Caesarea that bore the name of Pontius Pilate is evidence that Pilate was not some imaginary character created for a story. He was a real government official that presided over the province during the time of Christ. 

 

Archaeological evidence is just a small portion of what makes me a believer. Fulfilled prophecy is something no non-believer can sufficiently argue against. As I've often quoted Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22, where the crucifixion was foretold in detail a thousand years before it happened. There's no explaining that away as coincidence.

 

9 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

1.  Why would I be in  quagmire?  It's your problem.  Not mine.  Do you think I care, about what your God wants?

 

Quagmire may have been the wrong term, because you need to care about something in order to be in a quagmire. My only point was that I've accepted answers that I find sufficient, and this gives me hope and comfort about the future, while you remain content knowing nothing. I can't fathom how that could possibly provide a person with any comfort, let alone hope? Speaking for myself,  I could never be happy living in ignorance, and I've always suspected that everyone has a natural curiosity to explore the unknown in search of answers, but perhaps I'm wrong about that, its obvious that not everyone cares.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

22 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

Superman = Metropolis, Batman = Gotham, the characters were as fake as the non-existing cities.. My point was that the stone found in Caesarea that bore the name of Pontius Pilate is evidence that Pilate was not some imaginary character created for a story. He was a real government official that presided over the province during the time of Christ. 

 

Archaeological evidence is just a small portion of what makes me a believer. Fulfilled prophecy is something no non-believer can sufficiently argue against. As I've often quoted Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22, where the crucifixion was foretold in detail a thousand years before it happened. There's no explaining that away as coincidence.

 

 

Quagmire may have been the wrong term, because you need to care about something in order to be in a quagmire. My only point was that I've accepted answers that I find sufficient, and this gives me hope and comfort about the future, while you remain content knowing nothing. I can't fathom how that could possibly provide a person with any comfort, let alone hope? Speaking for myself,  I could never be happy living in ignorance, and I've always suspected that everyone has a natural curiosity to explore the unknown in search of answers, but perhaps I'm wrong about that, its obvious that not everyone cares.

 

You know nothing about my concerns.  You know nothing about what I know.  It is God that I don't care about --and I'm done arguing metaphysics.  It doesn't matter to me.  Neither are your beliefs of any concern to me.  I don't care what you believe.  You are not my problem.  As usual, you see no point of view except your own.  I will not be provoked.

 

 

Edited November 26, 2018 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[cuchulain]

16 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Superman = Metropolis, Batman = Gotham, the characters were as fake as the non-existing cities.. My point was that the stone found in Caesarea that bore the name of Pontius Pilate is evidence that Pilate was not some imaginary character created for a story. He was a real government official that presided over the province during the time of Christ. 

 

Archaeological evidence is just a small portion of what makes me a believer. Fulfilled prophecy is something no non-believer can sufficiently argue against. As I've often quoted Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22, where the crucifixion was foretold in detail a thousand years before it happened. There's no explaining that away as coincidence.

 

 

Quagmire may have been the wrong term, because you need to care about something in order to be in a quagmire. My only point was that I've accepted answers that I find sufficient, and this gives me hope and comfort about the future, while you remain content knowing nothing. I can't fathom how that could possibly provide a person with any comfort, let alone hope? Speaking for myself,  I could never be happy living in ignorance, and I've always suspected that everyone has a natural curiosity to explore the unknown in search of answers, but perhaps I'm wrong about that, its obvious that not everyone cares.

It was written after the fact...if you can prove a crucifixion of christ, whom you also cant prove lived.

[Dan56]

21 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

You know nothing about my concerns.  You know nothing about what I know.  It is God that I don't care about --and I'm done arguing metaphysics.  It doesn't matter to me.  Neither are your beliefs of any concern to me.  I don't care what you believe.  You are not my problem.  As usual, you see no point of view except your own.  I will not be provoked.

 

 

 

No ones provoking you, so don't be paranoid.. And I'm fully aware that you don't care what I believe.. I don't see your point of view because you have none, you believe in nothing, nor do you care.. I don't say that to antagonize anyone, its just sad to me to see others going through life with no hope

 

6 hours ago, cuchulain said:

It was written after the fact...if you can prove a crucifixion of christ, whom you also cant prove lived.

 

This is generally how a debate ends with Atheist... They can't argue the bible, so they claim none of it happened.  You really can't prove anything that happened thousands of years ago, that's why I've always said its a matter of choice, on whether a person believes it or not.  I believe it and you guys don't, that's all there is to it.

[RevBogovac]

On 11/26/2018 at 7:39 AM, Dan56 said:

[...] Fulfilled prophecy is something no non-believer can sufficiently argue against. As I've often quoted Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22, where the crucifixion was foretold in detail a thousand years before it happened. There's no explaining that away as coincidence. [...]

 

Yes, there is... the quotes are (by far!) not specific enough to be viewed as "fulfilled prophecies"; someone getting a death penalt for his political and/or religious believes?!? That's not a prophecy, that's a certainty (unfortunately)...

 

15 hours ago, cuchulain said:

It was written after the fact...if you can prove a crucifixion of christ, whom you also cant prove lived.

 

8 hours ago, Dan56 said:

[...] This is generally how a debate ends with Atheist... They can't argue the bible, so they claim none of it happened.  You really can't prove anything that happened thousands of years ago, that's why I've always said its a matter of choice, on whether a person believes it or not.  I believe it and you guys don't, that's all there is to it.

 

I, personally, believe there actually lived a philosopher named Jesus from Nazareth some 2.000 years ago who preached a philosophy of equality and pacifism (enough "evidence" of that). What I certainly do not believe are those made-up stories that were written centuries after his death which were only meant to "sanctualize" him and serve a couple of power hungry individuals of that time. And to "drive this home" I, personally, can not take anyone very serious that nowadays still believes these (latter) stories... (except that I take it very serious when these "believers" take their believes too far and start pushing them onto other people; religion is like a penis, great to have one, OK to be proud of it, but keep it away from public and children!).

[cuchulain]

9 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

No ones provoking you, so don't be paranoid.. And I'm fully aware that you don't care what I believe.. I don't see your point of view because you have none, you believe in nothing, nor do you care.. I don't say that to antagonize anyone, its just sad to me to see others going through life with no hope

 

 

This is generally how a debate ends with Atheist... They can't argue the bible, so they claim none of it happened.  You really can't prove anything that happened thousands of years ago, that's why I've always said its a matter of choice, on whether a person believes it or not.  I believe it and you guys don't, that's all there is to it.

Hence the lack of proof and my assertion that apologetics should apologize for trying to get us to believe without evidence and then acting like its our fault.  You did make a nice circle with the argument though.

[cuchulain]

On 11/26/2018 at 1:39 AM, Dan56 said:

 

Superman = Metropolis, Batman = Gotham, the characters were as fake as the non-existing cities.. My point was that the stone found in Caesarea that bore the name of Pontius Pilate is evidence that Pilate was not some imaginary character created for a story. He was a real government official that presided over the province during the time of Christ. 

 

Archaeological evidence is just a small portion of what makes me a believer. Fulfilled prophecy is something no non-believer can sufficiently argue against. As I've often quoted Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22, where the crucifixion was foretold in detail a thousand years before it happened. There's no explaining that away as coincidence.

 

 

Quagmire may have been the wrong term, because you need to care about something in order to be in a quagmire. My only point was that I've accepted answers that I find sufficient, and this gives me hope and comfort about the future, while you remain content knowing nothing. I can't fathom how that could possibly provide a person with any comfort, let alone hope? Speaking for myself,  I could never be happy living in ignorance, and I've always suspected that everyone has a natural curiosity to explore the unknown in search of answers, but perhaps I'm wrong about that, its obvious that not everyone cares.

I just have to ask...how do you live in southern illinois and not know metropolis is a real place?  They have Supermanfest every year.  And i could add popeye to the list...chester is also southern illinois and in comics.  And you think that defeats the point that just because your myths used real places they arent true?  You never responded about Greek mythology...you DO believe in zeus because there are real places in those myths, right?