Counterfeit God - Same Name, Attributes, Rules

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

8 hours ago, cuchulain said:

That's been my question.  First, shouldn't we prove ANY god is real?  I mean, they really don't care...if they aren't real.

 

This isn't true. Consider the passions of Captain Ahab, towards his great white whale.  Fictional characters can care a lot.   Any fictional character, including fictional gods -- can care about anything.  It depends on how they were written.  or spoken, in the case of oral traditions. .

 

The God of the Bible:  "I am the Lord your God.  You will have no other gods before me.  For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous god......."

 

The God of the Koran:  "There is no God but Allah and Mohamed is his profit."  

 

What do we learn from this?  The God of the Bible does not claim to be the only God.  He does insist on being the only God that we worship.  Unless we go to the verses where he is the only God.  The case can be made either way.

 

I'm not clear on whether the God of the Koran insists that he is the only God -- or if he is the only God to be worshiped.  The Koran is used and abused just like the Bible.  If you know the Suras well enough, you can prove anything.

 

In either case, the Abrahamic God is passionate about being the big G.  Which God we follow, if we must follow, is -- in my opinion -- a literary choice.  Or a culture based decision.  

 

There is the additional option, of regarding both of them, as the same God with a different name.  Some will agree.  Some won't.  I will leave that argument to the people who care.  I don't care.

 

I suppose, in the end, it comes down to belief.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 20, 2018 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

7 hours ago, LeopardBoy said:

 

This really isn’t a problem for polytheists, what with our Zeus who dwells on the mountaintop and the Zeus who dwells in the household pantry. Not to mention the Zeus of different cities, or the Zeus of foreigners who know him in their own “barbaric” tongue.

 

You do make some good points.  

 

 

[cuchulain]

12 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

This isn't true. Consider the passions of Captain Ahab, towards his great white whale.  Fictional characters can care a lot.   Any fictional character, including fictional gods -- can care about anything.  It depends on how they were written.  or spoken, in the case of oral traditions. .

 

The God of the Bible:  "I am the Lord your God.  You will have no other gods before me.  For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous god......."

 

The God of the Koran:  "There is no God but Allah and Mohamed is his profit."  

 

What do we learn from this?  The God of the Bible does not claim to be the only God.  He does insist on being the only God that we worship.  Unless we go to the verses where he is the only God.  The case can be made either way.

 

I'm not clear on whether the God of the Koran insists that he is the only God -- or if he is the only God to be worshiped.  The Koran is used and abused just like the Bible.  If you know the Suras well enough, you can prove anything.

 

In either case, the Abrahamic God is passionate about being the big G.  Which God we follow, if we must follow, is -- in my opinion -- a literary choice.  Or a culture based decision.  

 

There is the additional option, of regarding both of them, as the same God with a different name.  Some will agree.  Some won't.  I will leave that argument to the people who care.  I don't care.

 

I suppose, in the end, it comes down to belief.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

its only fictional caring, though...i wonder if a thousand years from now if archaeology will discover a set of manuscripts detailing the life of a magical savior of the planet and a statue that proves we worshipped him in his home town in Metropolis.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

55 minutes ago, cuchulain said:

its only fictional caring, though...i wonder if a thousand years from now if archaeology will discover a set of manuscripts detailing the life of a magical savior of the planet and a statue that proves we worshipped him in his home town in Metropolis.

 

We are now engaged in pure speculation.  I expect that if things go in that direction -- it will involve all the supper heroes and it will resemble Norse mythology.  The Mighty Thor is actually part of it.

 

The comics can be highly complex, involving alternate time lines.  The Planet of the Apes will be part of this mythology..  After all, the Statue of Liberty is real.  Likewise, the New York City Subway system.  And Grand Central Station.  With so many real places interwoven into the story line -- many will understand this as real history.  

 

 

 

[mark 45]

"profit"?

 

or did you mean that?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 hours ago, mark 45 said:

"profit"?

 

or did you mean that?

 

Who are you responding to?  I can't find the reference.  

[Key]

On 7/19/2018 at 6:01 AM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

I never finished reading the Koran.  The parts I did read were so Biblical  in feel.  It all seemed so familiar.

 

History is a thing of sadness.  So many real deaths, commanded by works of fiction.  I can't bring myself to take sides.  It's all so horrible.  At this layer of history, the Koran is more dangerous.  The Bible had a head start.  

 

 

Back to the thread.  When we ask which God is counterfeit -- distinct from authentic -- doesn't that suggest that at least one -- or both gods -- actually exists?

 

If we are only talking about their books -- the real issue is plagerism.

 

 

 

The question supposes that both entities are real, but wonders how we determine the difference. We know the one called the "great deceiver" is capable of mimicking anything the other can do. If, considering the Abrahamic God and Satan, the devil knows Scripture as well as God does, his answers to any question we might impose may not expose him as inauthentic.

So, the puzzle remains: how do we determine the difference? Clearly, knowing Scripture wouldn't be enough for discovery. 

[Key]

20 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

This isn't true. Consider the passions of Captain Ahab, towards his great white whale.  Fictional characters can care a lot.   Any fictional character, including fictional gods -- can care about anything.  It depends on how they were written.  or spoken, in the case of oral traditions. .

 

The God of the Bible:  "I am the Lord your God.  You will have no other gods before me.  For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous god......."

 

The God of the Koran:  "There is no God but Allah and Mohamed is his profit."  

 

What do we learn from this?  The God of the Bible does not claim to be the only God.  He does insist on being the only God that we worship.  Unless we go to the verses where he is the only God.  The case can be made either way.

 

I'm not clear on whether the God of the Koran insists that he is the only God -- or if he is the only God to be worshiped.  The Koran is used and abused just like the Bible.  If you know the Suras well enough, you can prove anything.

 

In either case, the Abrahamic God is passionate about being the big G.  Which God we follow, if we must follow, is -- in my opinion -- a literary choice.  Or a culture based decision.  

 

There is the additional option, of regarding both of them, as the same God with a different name.  Some will agree.  Some won't.  I will leave that argument to the people who care.  I don't care.

 

I suppose, in the end, it comes down to belief.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mark was referring to your misspelling, and was wondering if it was intentional. I didn't think it was, personally.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

5 hours ago, Key said:

The question supposes that both entities are real, but wonders how we determine the difference. We know the one called the "great deceiver" is capable of mimicking anything the other can do. If, considering the Abrahamic God and Satan, the devil knows Scripture as well as God does, his answers to any question we might impose may not expose him as inauthentic.

So, the puzzle remains: how do we determine the difference? Clearly, knowing Scripture wouldn't be enough for discovery. 

 

 

That helps a lot.  You are asking how we tell God apart from Satan.  First off, who and what is Satan?  I mean that as a serious question.

 

Satan is a major player in Job.  In Job, Satan functions as a District Attorney who is taking orders from the presiding judge.  That would be God.

 

Job is a small book.  It can be finished in one sitting.  Throughout the book, Satan presents himself to God.  Satan asks permission to further torment Job.  God considers, sets the limits on what Satan is allowed to do -- and sends Satan off to do his thing.  This repeats several times.  Satan returns to God asking for more latitude in tormenting/testing Job.  God considers -- again -- authorizes Satan to more extreme tactics -- again sets the limits for Satan's methods -- and sends him off again to do his thing.

 

At all times, God is in charge.  God sets the rules.  Satan obeys the rules.

 

You want to tell them apart?  They're on the same team.  I'm not being snarky or unkind.  They're on the same team.  Read Job.  All of it.  It's obvious.

 

This is something that is understood by Job himself.  His wife tells him to "curse God and die."  Job responds to his wife -- "What -- should we expect good from God and not evil?"

 

 

Edited July 21, 2018 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Key]

On 7/20/2018 at 6:27 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

That helps a lot.  You are asking how we tell God apart from Satan.  First off, who and what is Satan?  I mean that as a serious question.

 

Satan is a major player in Job.  In Job, Satan functions as a District Attorney who is taking orders from the presiding judge.  That would be God.

 

Job is a small book.  It can be finished in one sitting.  Throughout the book, Satan presents himself to God.  Satan asks permission to further torment Job.  God considers, sets the limits on what Satan is allowed to do -- and sends Satan off to do his thing.  This repeats several times.  Satan returns to God asking for more latitude in tormenting/testing Job.  God considers -- again -- authorizes Satan to more extreme tactics -- again sets the limits for Satan's methods -- and sends him off again to do his thing.

 

At all times, God is in charge.  God sets the rules.  Satan obeys the rules.

 

You want to tell them apart?  They're on the same team.  I'm not being snarky or unkind.  They're on the same team.  Read Job.  All of it.  It's obvious.

 

This is something that is understood by Job himself.  His wife tells him to "curse God and die."  Job responds to his wife -- "What -- should we expect good from God and not evil?"

 

 

I wasn't asking, but merely restating in another way what the original question of the thread was.

[mark 45]

On 7/19/2018 at 7:50 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

The God of the Koran:  "There is no God but Allah and Mohamed is his profit."

this is what i am referring to.actually i found it funny.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, mark 45 said:

this is what i am referring to.actually i found it funny.

 

 

It was a mistake.  Either that or my Freudian slip is showing.