a common atheist fallacy

[Dan56]

  On 7/9/2018 at 8:40 AM, RevBogovac said:

 

Sorry, but you do not get to "philosophise" this away... God does not get to "repent", remember: NU 23:19-20, 1SA 15:29, JA 1:17. 

 

Major contradictions going on by now...

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Not when taken in context of what's written.. Your correct with Numbers 23: 19-20, "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? Behold, I have received commandment to bless: and he hath blessed; and I cannot reverse it." This is speaking of God's immutable purpose, God's nature is unchangeable and His word irreversible. But in Genesis 6:6, God is not repenting of himself, of creation, or anything He had done. God repented of what man had done, the wickedness of man is what He was sorrowful about. 

[RevBogovac]

  On 7/10/2018 at 6:04 AM, Dan56 said:

 

Not when taken in context of what's written.. Your correct with Numbers 23: 19-20, "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? Behold, I have received commandment to bless: and he hath blessed; and I cannot reverse it." This is speaking of God's immutable purpose, God's nature is unchangeable and His word irreversible. But in Genesis 6:6, God is not repenting of himself, of creation, or anything He had done. God repented of what man had done, the wickedness of man is what He was sorrowful about. 

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Contradiction. <- period

[RevBogovac]

Not to bother you all with the (Very long) list of contradictions the bible is full of (and that is "normal" as people wrote the bible, and people are fallible.) You can find one of those lists at: Bible Inconsistencies - Bible Contradictions? as compiled by Donald Morgan.

 

As people who find themselves defending these contradictions bending over backwards, will also say that:

Adam lived 930 years (GE 5:5); and,

Terah was 205 years old when he died, making Abram 135 at the time (GE 11:32); 

 

As far as the God "not repenting [...] himself, [...] creation, [...] anything He had done" but he "repented of what man had done, the wickedness of man", well: God decides who will be dumb, deaf, blind, etc (EX 4:11 ). 

 

One of my - personal - favourite (recurring) contradictions in the bible is the dichotomy:

2SA 24:1 The Lord inspired David to take the census. 
1CH 21:1 Satan inspired the census.

 

Ah well. c'mon people; the bible is a nice philosophical book full of metaphors one can choose to learn from (or not). But taking the bible literally in this day and age, IMHO, does Christianity a huge disfavour.

[mererdog]

  On 7/8/2018 at 2:50 AM, Dan56 said:

You can't promote good when you insist on bringing evil along.

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You are putting limits on God again. If God is omnipotent, as you said, there is nothing that He can't do. The fact that we can't do it, and even the fact that we don't see how it could be possible to do it, would have no bearing on the simple fact that an omnipotent being could do it.

Omnipotence precludes the excuse of necessity. If God is omnipotent, things are the way they are because God wants them to be that way. Evil exists because God wants evil to exist. People are imperfect because God wants people to be imperfect. To find fault with the creation is to find fault with the creator.  

Assuming, as you say, that God is omnipotent. If God is not omnipotent, and therefore restrained by limitations, the moral arithmetic changes drastically.

Edited July 10, 2018 by mererdog

[mererdog]

  On 7/8/2018 at 2:50 AM, Dan56 said:

And no,  I would not feel guilty if I had the power to help some while others were harmed.

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That is not the question. The question is whether you would feel guilty if you had the power to help everyone, but chose to help some while harming others. If you chose, in other words, to hurt people you had the power to help.

Edited July 10, 2018 by mererdog

[mererdog]

  On 7/10/2018 at 6:58 AM, RevBogovac said:

Ah well. c'mon people; the bible is a nice philosophical book full of metaphors one can choose to learn from (or not). 

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It totally isn't that. I mean, it does contain some philosophy and some metaphors, but they don't even comprise the majority of the book. Its full of everything from folk history and legal records to geneologies and dream diary entries... Its a very complicated collection of disparate texts...

Edited July 10, 2018 by mererdog

[cuchulain]

god's nature changed from the old testament to the new...at least i haven't heard of any cities becoming salt or she bears entering towns to attack and kill kids making fun of his prophets...

[RevBogovac]

  On 7/10/2018 at 12:09 PM, mererdog said:

  On 7/10/2018 at 6:58 AM, RevBogovac said:

[...] c'mon people; the bible is a nice philosophical book full of metaphors one can choose to learn from (or not). But taking the bible literally in this day and age, IMHO, does Christianity a huge disfavour.

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It totally isn't that. I mean, it does contain some philosophy and some metaphors, but they don't even comprise the majority of the book. Its full of everything from folk history and legal records to geneologies and dream diary entries... Its a very complicated collection of disparate texts...

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True, those too...

 

[Dan56]

  On 7/10/2018 at 6:37 AM, RevBogovac said:

 

Contradiction. <- period

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If you had a healthy baby with your wife, you would likely be pleased with the child you created.. Later,  the good child you produced goes out and robs a bank and kills a bank teller in the process. You are obviously displeased with what your child had done and regret what he had become. So you were pleased and then displeased with the child you created. Does that define you as a walking contradiction?

 

  On 7/10/2018 at 6:58 AM, RevBogovac said:

One of my - personal - favourite (recurring) contradictions in the bible is the dichotomy:

2SA 24:1 The Lord inspired David to take the census. 
1CH 21:1 Satan inspired the census.

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I have an answer to this, but I'm relatively positive it would not be satisfactory, so no need to explain it. 

 

  On 7/10/2018 at 11:57 AM, mererdog said:

Evil exists because God wants evil to exist. People are imperfect because God wants people to be imperfect. To find fault with the creation is to find fault with the creator.

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That would be true if we were all robots and prohibited from exercising free will.. The only fault with creation was sin, and evil is the result of sin.  People are imperfect because we chose to be imperfect, I find no fault with creation, nor do I blame the creator for that.

 

  On 7/10/2018 at 12:00 PM, mererdog said:

That is not the question. The question is whether you would feel guilty if you had the power to help everyone, but chose to help some while harming others. If you chose, in other words, to hurt people you had the power to help.

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Its not always possible to help someone who doesn't want to be helped. If I had the power to help everyone like God has, I would not feel guilty for those who would not be helped. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" (Matthew 23:37)
 

Edited July 11, 2018 by Dan56

[RevBogovac]

  On 7/11/2018 at 12:48 AM, Dan56 said:

If you had a healthy baby with your wife, you would likely be pleased with the child you created.. Later,  the good child you produced goes out and robs a bank and kills a bank teller in the process. You are obviously displeased with what your child had done and regret what he had become. So you were pleased and then displeased with the child you created. Does that define you as a walking contradiction? [...]

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Nope, for a (hu-)man that makes perfectly sense. For a so called omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient God however...

 

  On 7/10/2018 at 6:58 AM, RevBogovac said:

[...] God decides who will be dumb, deaf, blind, etc (EX 4:11 ). [...]

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Major contradictions...

[mererdog]

  On 7/11/2018 at 12:48 AM, Dan56 said:

Its not always possible to help someone who doesn't want to be helped.

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So God is not omnipotent? There are things He cannot do? Talking bushes, virgin births, feeding multitudes with a couple fish, and even raising the dead are possible for Him- but its impossible for Him to help some people?

Edited July 11, 2018 by mererdog

[mererdog]

  On 7/11/2018 at 12:48 AM, Dan56 said:

People are imperfect because we chose to be imperfect, I find no fault with creation, nor do I blame the creator for that.

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People are a part of creation. To find fault with people is to find fault with creation, just as finding fault with the entree is finding fault with the meal. 

[Dan56]

  On 7/11/2018 at 7:58 AM, RevBogovac said:

Nope, for a (hu-)man that makes perfectly sense. For a so called omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient God however...

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So if your child screwed-up, you would not be pleased, but if a child of God messes up, He's suppose to be happy about it? Hmm

 

  On 7/11/2018 at 8:58 PM, mererdog said:

 

So God is not omnipotent? There are things He cannot do? Talking bushes, virgin births, feeding multitudes with a couple fish, and even raising the dead are possible for Him- but its impossible for Him to help some people?

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Its possible, but only by removing free choice, and God has chosen not to do that. You can't force love, and if you did, it wouldn't be genuine. In a sense, God has helped everyone by removing the curse of sin via Christ, whereby all are worthy of salvation. But an all powerful God has decided not to accept those who reject Him. So its not a matter of God "cannot do", but rather what God has chosen 'not to do'.

 

  On 7/11/2018 at 9:02 PM, mererdog said:

People are a part of creation. To find fault with people is to find fault with creation, just as finding fault with the entree is finding fault with the meal. 

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What people choose to do and believe emanates from within themselves. We are independent spirits and we're created to make independent decisions. God was pleased when He created us, but not with what we decided to do. That ought to be a simple concept to grasp. God assigns fault towards our disobedience, not the fact that he created us. 

[RevBogovac]

  On 7/12/2018 at 5:19 AM, Dan56 said:

[...] That ought to be a simple concept to grasp. [...]

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Right. And:

 

  On 7/10/2018 at 6:58 AM, RevBogovac said:

[...] Adam lived 930 years (GE 5:5); and,

Terah was 205 years old when he died, making Abram 135 at the time (GE 11:32); [...]

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But you forgot:

 

  On 7/10/2018 at 6:58 AM, RevBogovac said:

[...] God decides who will be dumb, deaf, blind, etc (EX 4:11 ). [...]

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And than he can repent our free choices... right.

 

 

 

[Dan56]

  On 7/12/2018 at 8:42 AM, RevBogovac said:

 

Right. And: 

...] Adam lived 930 years (GE 5:5); and,

Terah was 205 years old when he died, making Abram 135 at the time (GE 11:32); [...]

 

 

But you forgot:  

[...] Adam lived 930 years (GE 5:5); and,

Terah was 205 years old when he died, making Abram 135 at the time (GE 11:32); [...] 

 

And than he can repent our free choices... right.

 

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 Its true, Adam lived 930 years, Terah lived 205 years, which would have made Abraham about

135 years old when his father Terah died.. Excellent math, but no contradiction.

 

"And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?" This to me is just saying that God makes all people, including those who for whatever reason happen to be deaf, mute, or blind.. In the preceding verse, Moses complained to God; “I am slow of speech and tongue”. Perhaps he had some speech impediment or stuttered? So God is essentially telling him in verses 11 &12 that He made all mouths, and that He would help him speak.

 

That said, physical ailments are a part of the death-dealing curse we inherited from Adam (Genesis 3:19), but God didn't originally create anything defective. Sickness, disabilities, and ailments in any form are part of the corruption that we chose, and the random evil that falls on us is the result or sin. We now exist in a fallen corrupt world, not the original good one God created. Moses later wrote; “He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he” (Deuteronomy 32:4).

 

[RevBogovac]

  On 7/12/2018 at 3:17 PM, Dan56 said:

 Its true, Adam lived 930 years [...]

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Hmkay... As I already said:

 

  On 7/10/2018 at 6:58 AM, RevBogovac said:

[...] the bible is a nice philosophical book full of metaphors [and folk history, legal records, geneologies, dream diary entries et cetera] one can choose to learn from (or not). But taking the bible literally in this day and age, IMHO, does Christianity a huge disfavour.

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[cuchulain]

In school we studied various myths, mostly from Greek and Roman sources.  For some reason they just don't want to teach other cultures mythologies, and I always wondered at that.  Anyway, when I graduated high school and went to college, I studied other mythologies...Norse, Celtic, Japanese, I don't remember what all honestly.  At the same time, I studied various religions.  I looked into things like Christianity, even though I had grown up with it, but I began questioning it.  I looked into various pagan religions, mysticism type religions, learned a little about Buddhism and Shintoism, all sorts.  

 

It took me years to realize that studying mythology or religion was the same.

Edited July 13, 2018 by cuchulain

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

  On 7/13/2018 at 3:12 PM, cuchulain said:

In school we studied various myths, mostly from Greek and Roman sources.  For some reason they just don't want to teach other cultures mythologies, and I always wondered at that.  Anyway, when I graduated high school and went to college, I studied other mythologies...Norse, Celtic, Japanese, I don't remember what all honestly.  At the same time, I studied various religions.  I looked into things like Christianity, even though I had grown up with it, but I began questioning it.  I looked into various pagan religions, mysticism type religions, learned a little about Buddhism and Shintoism, all sorts.  

 

It took me years to realize that studying mythology or religion was the same.

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Mythology is the process of saying that the old gods aren't real.

 

  

 

The Wheel turns.

 

 

 

 

 

[cuchulain]

  On 7/8/2018 at 2:50 AM, Dan56 said:

 

You can't promote good when you insist on bringing evil along.

 

 

 

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if this is the case, then how does the bible do so?

[Dan56]

  On 7/16/2018 at 3:34 PM, cuchulain said:

if this is the case, then how does the bible do so?

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The bible tolerates evil, and occasionally uses evil to bring about a greater good, but if you read the final chapters, evil does not come along, its ultimately destroyed.