Have You Ever Fallen For It?


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On 5/26/2016 at 1:11 PM, cuchulain said:

I have heard that one as well, though not as often in matters spiritual or religious.  Yet it is one that I rarely fall for personally because I am more skeptical of the new than the old.  Almost seems backwards, doesn't it?

Not really backward. Age is just a number, after all. We just fall on opposite ends of the spectrum of age-related prejudice advertisers routinely mine to get us to act against our own best interests... Hey, its still better than being one of those people that falls for bandwagon sales pitches. Those guys are just sad....

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I have fallen for things. But I find that they were a part of the learning process and do not regret them. I attempt to learn from my mistakes and without them I would not be the person I am now. With age I have become more cynical and less gullible, but I still like to leave room for the hope of new things being valid :)

Valete,

Aeternus

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On ‎5‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 3:04 PM, cuchulain said:

I have heard those before, Umbraedeus.  Especially the Druid lie.  That's always an amusing one to look back on.  What matters when comes the wisdom, if it is wisdom?  People(myself included at times) seem to think that age adds wisdom.  In the realm of Wicca, I have had Gardner Wiccans get very hostile to me when I related their history as I knew it, and I wasn't rubbing it in their face or anything, simply telling them my understanding and asking for clarification.  

Johnathan, clearly you haven't BEEN to my heaven, or you would know there is no greener grass.  Why not convert?(that's a joke, btw, since humor doesn't often translate well online)

Hi Cuchulain,

I guess many feel, sometimes myself, that if something has been around for a long time it is considered "tried and true" where new things are an unknown. Of course it depends on the situation. People are all the time seeking new medications or medical procedures but are not interested in having maggots introduced to their wounds to eat out the infection or having leeches applied to them for bloodletting :devil:

Yours in Darkness,

Umbraedeus :vamp: 

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On ‎5‎/‎26‎/‎2016 at 4:11 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

The fraudulent nature of new things is frequently more obvious.  Consider the world of energetic healing methods.  In the last ten years, the number of new methods in the marketplace has exploded.  And they all begin by saying that they are better than Reiki.  And they are all expensive to learn.  My BS detector is working overtime.  

:sigh2:     :whist:

Hi Jonathan,

I agree with you about the Reiki/energy healing thing. I have been a Reiki master for 9 years and the number of new and supposedly more advanced systems has grown exponentially. Reiki only has 3 or 4 levels (depending on if level 3 is split into separate levels for master and teacher) but I have seen people claiming to have discovered new, "advanced" levels making anywhere from 7 to 12 levels. People also claim to be discovering or sometimes "channeling" new, more powerful  Reiki symbols all the time. Its also amazing how many new non-Reiki systems seem almost  identical to Reiki but have a new, mystical or esoteric sounding name like Atlantean Healing Method. I just made that name up, but there is probably a system out there called that or something similar. I think your BS detector is in perfect working order :)

Yours in Darkness,

Umbraedeus :vamp: 

Edited by Umbraedeus
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4 hours ago, Umbraedeus said:

Hi Jonathan,

I agree with you about the Reiki/energy healing thing. I have been a Reiki master for 9 years and the number of new and supposedly more advanced systems has grown exponentially. Reiki only has 3 or 4 levels (depending on if level 3 is split into separate levels for master and teacher) but I have seen people claiming to have discovered new, "advanced" levels making anywhere from 7 to 12 levels. People also claim to be discovering or sometimes "channeling" new, more powerful  Reiki symbols all the time. Its also amazing how many new non-Reiki systems seem almost  identical to Reiki but have a new, mystical or esoteric sounding name like Atlantean Healing Method. I just made that name up, but there is probably a system out there called that or something similar. I think your BS detector is in perfect working order :)

Yours in Darkness,

Umbraedeus :vamp: 

The new systems I was thinking of are "Vortex" healing and "Quantum" healing.  Very New Age.  Very expensive.  More powerful than Reiki. (So they say.)

The first Reiki school I attended was the American International Reiki Association. (AIRA)  They were a seven degree system founded by Barbara Webber Ray.  The last of the 22 Reiki Masters trained by Hawayo Takata.  They call themselves the "Radiance Technique" now.  Supposedly, as the final student of Takata, Ray was the only student to get the "complete whole seven degree system."  They went on from there to break level three into 3A and 3B.  They wanted $5,000 for 3A.  They have trademarked "Real Reiki" - "Authentic Reiki" and "Radiance Technique."  I went to 2nd Degree.

I expect you know about Karuna Reiki, founded and trademarked by William Rand.   They got me.  More symbols.

I also ran into the "Loving Touch" school of Reiki.  After 2nd Level, they had "Advanced Practitioner."  They got me.  Five more symbols.  Also their ordination as "Minister of Spiritual Healing."  They used to be big.  Now they are small.  The head of the school/church decided to teach the most advanced stuff himself, in competition with his own teachers.  Most of them left him.  Greedy and stupid.

When I first encountered Therapeutic Touch, the system was elegant in it's simplicity.  Three workshops consisting of Beginner, Intermediate and Advanced.  No credentials.  Now they have credentials.  You wouldn't believe the hoops.  Or the expense.

Have you come across the Pranic Healing people?  Hang onto you wallet. Over complicated and very pricey.  I took their beginners class before I knew bettter.

The knew stuff is exploding.  Sacred Fire Reiki, Celtic Reiki, Kabballah Reiki.........  I've stopped looking.  The Bull Crap is more than flesh can stand.  At least, more than I can stand.

We haven't even mentioned the Qi Gong scene.  Some of it is legit.  Some of it is religion.  Some of it is fraud.

 

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl
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Hi Jonathan,

Yes, the Radiance Technique was what I had in mind when I was talking about 7 levels. I took an online/distant attunement course in Karuna Ki by Vincent Amador which uses the extra symbols that Karuna Reiki does and was supposed to be more "advanced." But at least I only spentd $30 on that instead of hundreds of dollars on Karuna Reiki (TM). I enrolled in Celtic Reiki by Martyn Pentecost but never received the follow up email to schedule my attunements. I studied Druidism along time ago and knew enough about the Ogham alphabet to see there wasn't much to it after reviewing the manuals. I mainly practice Komyo Reiki, one of the Traditional Japanese Reiki systems (but which has obviously been influenced by Western Reiki practices as well). This is because I wanted in person attunements and hands on training, and there was a certified teacher within 50 miles. It cost around $600 altogether to reach the shinpiden level (teacher's degree) but the instructor was very knowledgeable about Reiki as well as other alternative healing subjects. She put a lot of effort into teaching, and taught me in one on one sessions in her clinic. I still feel that was worth it. But I don't feel Komyo Reiki is more advanced or superior to standard Usui Reiki. BTW, don't forget to mention Seichem Healing Energy discovered in the Egyptian pyramids by Patrick Ziegler and Shamballa Multidimensional Energy Healing channeled by John Armitage from ascended master St. Germain :P 

Hi mererdog,

Thanks for the link; I am not bothered by detractors. I still personally believe there is something valid in energy healing, at least in some types of it  :)

Yours in Darkness,

Umbraedeus :vamp: 

Edited by Umbraedeus
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20 minutes ago, Umbraedeus said:

Hi Jonathan,

Yes, the Radiance Technique was what I had in mind when I was talking about 7 levels. I took an online/distant attunement course in Karuna Ki by Vincent Amador which uses the extra symbols that Karuna Reiki does and was supposed to be more "advanced." But at least I only spentd $30 on that instead of hundreds of dollars on Karuna Reiki (TM). I enrolled in Celtic Reiki by Martyn Pentecost but never received the follow up email to schedule my attunements. I studied Druidism along time ago and knew enough about the Ogham alphabet to see there wasn't much to it after reviewing the manuals. I mainly practice Komyo Reiki, one of the Traditional Japanese Reiki systems (but which has obviously been influenced by Western Reiki practices as well). This is because I wanted in person attunements and hands on training, and there was a certified teacher within 50 miles. It cost around $600 altogether to reach the shinpiden level (teacher's degree) but the instructor was very knowledgeable about Reiki as well as other alternative healing subjects. She put a lot of effort into teaching, and taught me in one on one sessions in her clinic. I still feel that was worth it. But I don't feel Komyo Reiki is more advanced or superior to standard Usui Reiki. BTW, don't forget to mention Seichem Healing Energy discovered in the Egyptian pyramids by Patrick Ziegler and Shamballa Multidimensional Energy Healing channeled by John Armitage from ascended master St. Germain :P 

Hi mererdog,

Thanks for the link; I am not bothered by detractors. I still personally believe there is something valid in energy healing, at least in some types of it  :)

Yours in Darkness,

Umbraedeus :vamp: 

I've already done Seichem.  It was a mistake.  Also a source of humor.  I have a formal initiation to the  Lion Headed Goddess, Sekhmet.  Yes, I am a Jew, ordained as an Agnostic, formerly initiated to an Egyptian Goddess.  If there is one more way to be a cultural contradiction, I can't think of it.

Well, I also have an initiation to Medicine Buddha, through a legitimate Tibetan Buddhist lineage.  It used to be important to me.

Looking back on things, I have been so stupid, it hurts.

Not getting lost on detail, there is more, I am a Reiki Master.  Based on what I know about Reiki, I can't teach it.  Buddhist mysticism is no improvement over Christian mysticism.  It's only different.  I'm persuaded that much of what I was taught is wrong.

Well, one bit of boasting.  I was also trained in First and Second Degree Reiki by John Harvey Gray.  I took Therapeutic Touch workshops with Dolores Krieger and Janet Macrae.  I took MariEl under Ethel Lombardi and Shirley Hausman.  It all tastes like dust.

Life goes on.     :whist:

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On ‎6‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 4:57 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

I've already done Seichem.  It was a mistake.  Also a source of humor.  I have a formal initiation to the  Lion Headed Goddess, Sekhmet.  Yes, I am a Jew, ordained as an Agnostic, formerly initiated to an Egyptian Goddess.  If there is one more way to be a cultural contradiction, I can't think of it.

Well, I also have an initiation to Medicine Buddha, through a legitimate Tibetan Buddhist lineage.  It used to be important to me.

Looking back on things, I have been so stupid, it hurts.

Not getting lost on detail, there is more, I am a Reiki Master.  Based on what I know about Reiki, I can't teach it.  Buddhist mysticism is no improvement over Christian mysticism.  It's only different.  I'm persuaded that much of what I was taught is wrong.

Well, one bit of boasting.  I was also trained in First and Second Degree Reiki by John Harvey Gray.  I took Therapeutic Touch workshops with Dolores Krieger and Janet Macrae.  I took MariEl under Ethel Lombardi and Shirley Hausman.  It all tastes like dust.

Life goes on.     :whist:

Hi Jonathan,

There is nothing wrong with a little boasting :) I'm sure you learned some useful things from your training even if a lot of it no longer seems valid. I have still been able to find some few gems lying amid the piles of "dust" ;) 

Umbraedeus :vamp: 

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1 hour ago, Umbraedeus said:

Hi Jonathan,

There is nothing wrong with a little boasting :) I'm sure you learned some useful things from your training even if a lot of it no longer seems valid. I have still been able to find some few gems lying amid the piles of "dust" ;) 

Umbraedeus :vamp: 

I am persuaded that this type of healing is valid.  Not, however because of "energy" manipulation.  The real mechanism seems to be how my perceptions of reality have changed.

:whist:

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8 hours ago, Umbraedeus said:

Hi Jonathan,

There is nothing wrong with a little boasting :) I'm sure you learned some useful things from your training even if a lot of it no longer seems valid. I have still been able to find some few gems lying amid the piles of "dust" ;) 

Umbraedeus :vamp: 

I'm sure you will understand.  I find this amusing.

The person on this board who understands me, is the vampire.  At that, the gay vampire.

:D 

If ever I saw it, this is a message about how to pick out friends.

 

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On 6/4/2016 at 2:07 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Yes?  Your point?

She didn't fall for it. At the same time, she didn't simply dismiss it. She tested it. I think that is admirable. Don't you?

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On ‎6‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 6:11 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

I'm sure you will understand.  I find this amusing.

The person on this board who understands me, is the vampire.  At that, the gay vampire.

:D 

If ever I saw it, this is a message about how to pick out friends.

 

:thumbu: 

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On 6/9/2016 at 11:26 AM, mererdog said:

She didn't fall for it. At the same time, she didn't simply dismiss it. She tested it. I think that is admirable. Don't you?

You have declared yourself clearly enough.  Thank you for not pretending you have an open mind.

No.  I don't find it admirable.  I grow weary of people who have never studied these therapies, never had a session with one of these therapies, or even observed such a session.

Neither am I impressed by gotcha experiments, no matter how sciencey they pretend to be.

You impress too easily.  If you want real attack material, I suggest you try quackwatch.com.

 

:whist:

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1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

You have declared yourself clearly enough.  Thank you for not pretending you have an open mind.

 

You seem to have misunderstood me. I was using the call-back to the title of the thread to suggest the act of  accepting claims without examination, which I juxtaposed with the act of rejection without examination.

I'm curious. What is the difference between a "gotcha" experiment and an honest test of someone's claims? If someone claims to be able to sense auras, how can I fairly test that claim, if not through a double-blind protocol like the one she employed?

Edited by mererdog
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1 hour ago, mererdog said:

You seem to have misunderstood me. I was using the call-back to the title of the thread to suggest the act of  accepting claims without examination, which I juxtaposed with the act of rejection without examination.

I'm curious. What is the difference between a "gotcha" experiment and an honest test of someone's claims? If someone claims to be able to sense auras, how can I fairly test that claim, if not through a double-blind protocol like the one she employed?

You begin with someone who is neutral regarding the outcome.  Emily Rosa's mother is a nurse, who regards Therapeutic Touch as  a stain on her profession.  That is how Emily found out about it.

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17 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

You begin with someone who is neutral regarding the outcome.  Emily Rosa's mother is a nurse, who regards Therapeutic Touch as  a stain on her profession.  That is how Emily found out about it.

But that's just ad hominem. It says nothing about the qualities of the experiment.

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