The Actions Of Two People

[Atwater Vitki]

Even as deaf as I am becoming, I understand that in a piano, if you play a middle C, all other strings in the piano turned to a C will start to vibrate. The note resonates to the other strings because they are attuned to that note. Truth is the same. We each have a truth that will resonate within us. It makes no sense to try to play a different tune. A tuning fork is only capable of making one sound - the one to which it is tuned. That is it's truth. If I tried to convert you to my belief, it would only serve to make hypocrites of us both if you followed.

I would not judge Christians but it was Christians who murdered the native population in America to near extinction. I don't think they were extremist, either. Just good old God fearing citizens. I heard tell that Muhammad Ali was asked what he thought of the 9-ll terrorist sharing his religion. He asked back what the questioner thought of Hitler sharing his. One group attacks another for whatever reason and then it becomes a blood feud of revenge. Burning a peaceful Mosque, Synagogue or Church, it is all hate, preached by bitter twisted men.

Two things that really struck a chord with me this morning by refreshing myself on this thread.

Many of us wonder just how can one (or even a few) people gain such a following as to incite violence and hate in this world. But then Br Devon so eloquently points out one of the things I so firmly believe in, vibration and energies.

Naturally the name Westboro Baptist Church in Christianity and Al Qaeda in Islam come to mind as extreme examples. Both are factions of "hate preached by bitter, twisted men". Just as those of us who want peace, harmony and compassion for all....because it strikes our vibration...so does violence and hate vibrate with those who only desire destruction and ill will towards others.

We can pick apart the Bible, Torah, Gita and Koran to pieces and make long lists of the violent text and peaceful text. We can compare and analyze the loving and compassionate writings of the poets and writers of each belief. However, until all people see things from the same angle and want the same things from this life, it doesn't matter what the books say, there will be these various vibrations causing dis-chord and calamity everywhere. Just like Jo Frost ("Super Nanny") goes into dysfunctional families and creates harmony by "retuning" each individual's needs into a multi-key chord, so can the world change if it wanted to.

In the same manner, so should parents teach each other and their children, pastors and minister teach their flocks, communities teach their governments and so on. It's difficult to believe this entire world, full of seven billion varying ideas could ever be "harmonic", but it could happen with the right leadership...at least that's how I see this

.

Blessings of Peace,

You may say I'm a dreamer

But I'm not the only one

I hope someday you'll join us

And the world will be as one

A brotherhood of man

Imagine all the people

Sharing all the world... John Lennon

[Pete]

I would not judge Christians but it was Christians who murdered the native population in America to near extinction. I don't think they were extremist, either. Just good old God fearing citizens. I heard tell that Muhammad Ali was asked what he thought of the 9-ll terrorist sharing his religion. He asked back what the questioner thought of Hitler sharing his. One group attacks another for whatever reason and then it becomes a blood feud of revenge. Burning a peaceful Mosque, Synagogue or Church, it is all hate, preached by bitter twisted men.

I agree Brother Kaman. I heard a similar challenge given by a Muslim female comedian. She said why do people always look to Al Qaeda to know what Muslims think. Would you like it if people went to the KKK to find out about Christianity.

I really wish I could remember her name but I am embarrassed as I do not but the point struck home for me.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Pete

[Dan56]

Such a peaceful and loving religion;

I wasn't judging all Muslims,

How was this sarcastic comment not judging all Islam and therefore all Muslims?

On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land (5:32)

Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. (17:33)

Whether open or secret; take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: (6:151)

I know you believe in the death penalty because you have told me so in the past and we disagreed over it. How are you any different to the theme of these quotes?

The sarcasm was directed at the religion. Given recent acts of terrorism (i.g. the British soldier hacked to death by Muslim extremist), I was associating Islamic extremism with violence. I didn't write that all Muslims were extremist, so I was not judging all Muslims.

I do support a death penalty for first degree murder, but I'm not sure what killing someone for "spreading mischief in the land" means, nor do I know what killing someone for "just cause" entails? And where these verses say to not take a life which 'Allah has made sacred', I'm assuming that infidels (Christians and Jews) aren't lives that Allah considers sacred?

Edited June 13, 2013 by Dan56

[Pete]

I still do not see how you can direct criticism at the religion and still not refer to all Muslims who follow that religion. Most that I know argue that those who kill others are not following Islam but a warped version of it.

Here is a link that says "human life is Sacred". It does not say only that of Muslims.

"Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, We have given his heir authority (to demand Qisas or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the law). (Quran Al-Isra' 17:33)

Say: "Come, I will rehearse what Allah has (really) prohibited you from": join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents; kill not your children on a plea of want - We provide sustenance for you and for them - come not nigh to shameful deeds, whether open or secret; take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus does He command you, that you may learn wisdom. (Quran Al-An'am 6:151)"

Islam considers human life sacred. Life is to be protected and promoted as much as possible. - See more at: http://www.islamicity.com/Articles/articles.asp?ref=IC0503-2653#sthash.45rf6ks1.dpuf

I find that interesting but there is again the fact that the original meaning of love your neighbor as yourself also meant only "your Jewish Neighbors" when it was first spoken in the Torah but religions often develop to include the fellowship of the human race as ones neighbor too . See:- http://www.inner.org/responsa/leter1/RESP22.HTM

Edited June 13, 2013 by Pete

[Dan56]

I still do not see how you can direct criticism at the religion and still not refer to all Muslims who follow that religion. Most that I know argue that those who kill others are not following Islam but a warped version of it.

Here is a link that says "human life is Sacred". It does not say only that of Muslims.

I find that interesting but there is again the fact that the original meaning of love your neighbor as yourself also meant only "your Jewish Neighbors" when it was first spoken in the Torah but religions often develop to include the fellowship of the human race as ones neighbor too . See:- http://www.inner.org/responsa/leter1/RESP22.HTM

As I previously mentioned, I don't like the religion, I also don't believe the Quran

or that Allah even exist, but that is my personal preference and not a criticism towards those that do follow Islam. Its no different than your and Fawzo's critique of the bible, your not condemning Christians, just disagreeing with what they believe. It's the radical Islamist who use the Koran to justify terrorism that I hate. The Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McViegh proclaimed himself a Christian, but my criticism of his actions are no reflection on other Christians. Hating what Judas did does not extend to Peter via association. Its the same with Muslims, some want Jihad and others are peaceful. I reckon there's good and bad people in every belief?

My personal interpretation of "love your neighbor as yourself" is that Jesus was referring to your neighbor, a brother or sister of the same faith. But he extended it to "love your enemies and pray for them" (Matthew 5:44), which is one factor that differentiates Islam from Christianity. JMO

Edited June 14, 2013 by Dan56

[Pete]

Dan I believe in Christianity. Just not your take on it.

So you do not like the religion of Islam or the Quaran or Allah but you are not judging Muslims. ????

So Christianity does not carry out violence :- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion-related_violence

and http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Christian_terrorism

Now I know that the majority Christians do not believe in violence but can you understand that the majority of the followers of Islam do not believe in violence either.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Pete

[Dianna]

As I was reading Dan's post about who controls the weather, and one of Fawzo's responses, it mirrored something I'd written down in a super-rough draft just days ago while reading something in preparation for a funeral.

This was something I wrote just days ago, in response to what I'd wanted to say to some Christians who had ticked me off, but I knew it'd turn into an argument . . .

In this particular situation I was preparing the funeral of someone who was a R.H. but most of his surviving family is Christian-types who loudly, forthrightly believe this person went to the opposite place of heaven. They wanted to use his funeral as an opportunity to speak about salvation. This wonderful person had given me specific things he wanted said and done and had warned me there was a “chance” his family might come, but doubted it.

After he was gone, it was very apparent they were not only going to come, but wanted to use his last memorial and send-off of his for their own platform. The memorial service was going to consist of family (Christians) and his “adopted family” (friends) For a while it looked like the makings of a disaster.

The first meeting with his family didn’t start well. Both sides thought the other was in the wrong and stubborn (I’m including myself). Then a tiny hole in the armor. We found something in common and shared a laugh.

Once the ice was broken, it happened again. Suddenly they didn’t seem so “harsh” and “hard”. At first, grudgingly, personal recollections started. Family memories turned to tears, and then they started to really want to understand their son and why he wouldn’t believe what they did, when they had done “everything right”.

It can be very hard for me in that situation. The person they needed so much to have this conversation with is gone, the time for changing things said and done is past. Sometimes so much damage is done; people are hurt, then turn around and hurt back.

The second meeting was like meeting with different people. We still weren’t on the same page, but they wanted me to share their son’s beliefs and reasons for believing that way. Slowly the funeral arrangements got back to what he wanted.

The funeral was held on Wednesday. It was a wonderful Rational Hedonist service. They had opted not to have their own “religious” service and agreed to come to the one he’d wanted which included his variety of friends. They may not have agreed with it, but at least they’d gotten to the point where they respected his wishes and understood what was going on.

Rational Hedonists don’t believe the soul survives death or in an afterlife. To symbolize that the candles at the memorial are snuffed out one by one as one after another names what they will miss most about the person. At the end, the room is dark except for one candle, symbolizing the emptiness the person left behind. But there’s that one candle, representing as long as they are remembered, they aren’t gone. One by one now, someone tells of a special memory of something the deceased said or did. One by one the candles are relit. As long as we remember, he isn’t gone. The family was touched at the things people said of him and hadn’t realized how many lives he’d touched. There were tears on both sides. He was buried on private land in a wicker coffin, with an oak tree to be planted over him.

His mother came up to me as I was leaving and flat-out gave me a big hug. We talked, and her basic words were, she still didn’t understand why we believed what we did, but it certainly wasn’t “of the devil”. Believe me, this was a big change and was a complement compared to our original meeting.

What I'd written in red at the beginning of this thread was me muddling through trying to figure out their reasoning, trying to pull off a funeral according to the last wishes of someone but trying to keep peace with a family that loved him, but treated him badly because there seemed to be no place in their hearts for someone who went "against" them. I’d only heard his point of view when it came to his family, he didn’t even think his own family would show up.

The saddest part was when they joined in with the candle service – I think he’d have smiled to hear their fond memories.

If only both sides could have communicated those things to each other. It’s sad that death had to bring it out, when it’s too late.

Anyway, that was the conclusion to what triggered this thread, it was a sad, difficult week, but it ended with a certain amount of satisfaction and reminded me why I do what I do.

Thank you to everyone who added their point of view to this thread.

Edited June 15, 2013 by Dianna

[Dan56]

Dan I believe in Christianity. Just not your take on it. And I believe in Islam, just not the Muslims spin on it. I don't accept anything the Koran says, I don't believe Mohammad was a prophet, and I'd never accept a tyrannical God like Allah.

So you do not like the religion of Islam or the Quaran or Allah but you are not judging Muslims. ????

So Christianity does not carry out violence :- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion-related_violence

When I mentioned that I wasn't judging all Muslims, that was in regards to committing acts of terrorism. In regards to the religion itself, since I believe its wrong, I would obviously judge those who follow it to be in error.

And yes, there are violent Christians as well, and I don't condone bombing abortion clinics, even though its an effort to defend the defenseless.

Edited June 15, 2013 by Dan56

[grateful]

In this particular situation I was preparing the funeral of someone who was a R.H. but most of his surviving family is Christian-types who loudly, forthrightly believe this person went to the opposite place of heaven. They wanted to use his funeral as an opportunity to speak about salvation. This wonderful person had given me specific things he wanted said and done and had warned me there was a “chance” his family might come, but doubted it.

After he was gone, it was very apparent they were not only going to come, but wanted to use his last memorial and send-off of his for their own platform. The memorial service was going to consist of family (Christians) and his “adopted family” (friends) For a while it looked like the makings of a disaster.

The first meeting with his family didn’t start well. Both sides thought the other was in the wrong and stubborn (I’m including myself). Then a tiny hole in the armor. We found something in common and shared a laugh.

Once the ice was broken, it happened again. Suddenly they didn’t seem so “harsh” and “hard”. At first, grudgingly, personal recollections started. Family memories turned to tears, and then they started to really want to understand their son and why he wouldn’t believe what they did, when they had done “everything right”.

It can be very hard for me in that situation. The person they needed so much to have this conversation with is gone, the time for changing things said and done is past. Sometimes so much damage is done; people are hurt, then turn around and hurt back.

The second meeting was like meeting with different people. We still weren’t on the same page, but they wanted me to share their son’s beliefs and reasons for believing that way. Slowly the funeral arrangements got back to what he wanted.

The funeral was held on Wednesday. It was a wonderful Rational Hedonist service. They had opted not to have their own “religious” service and agreed to come to the one he’d wanted which included his variety of friends. They may not have agreed with it, but at least they’d gotten to the point where they respected his wishes and understood what was going on.

Rational Hedonists don’t believe the soul survives death or in an afterlife. To symbolize that the candles at the memorial are snuffed out one by one as one after another names what they will miss most about the person. At the end, the room is dark except for one candle, symbolizing the emptiness the person left behind. But there’s that one candle, representing as long as they are remembered, they aren’t gone. One by one now, someone tells of a special memory of something the deceased said or did. One by one the candles are relit. As long as we remember, he isn’t gone. The family was touched at the things people said of him and hadn’t realized how many lives he’d touched. There were tears on both sides. He was buried on private land in a wicker coffin, with an oak tree to be planted over him.

His mother came up to me as I was leaving and flat-out gave me a big hug. We talked, and her basic words were, she still didn’t understand why we believed what we did, but it certainly wasn’t “of the devil”. Believe me, this was a big change and was a complement compared to our original meeting.

What I'd written in red at the beginning of this thread was me muddling through trying to figure out their reasoning, trying to pull off a funeral according to the last wishes of someone but trying to keep peace with a family that loved him, but treated him badly because there seemed to be no place in their hearts for someone who went "against" them. I’d only heard his point of view when it came to his family, he didn’t even think his own family would show up.

The saddest part was when they joined in with the candle service – I think he’d have smiled to hear their fond memories.

If only both sides could have communicated those things to each other. It’s sad that death had to bring it out, when it’s too late.

Anyway, that was the conclusion to what triggered this thread, it was a sad, difficult week, but it ended with a certain amount of satisfaction and reminded me why I do what I do.

Thank you to everyone who added their point of view to this thread.

wow! that's big. well done. it's so hard to watch people be so mis-guided. so full of their own agenda and ways that they can't see that their ways lack meaning for so many. and your friend's memory waiting.

to your original post, what you wrote in red was terribly spot on - it illustrates the particular reasons that I can't/won't worship this loving god of theirs. because I just don't see it..

maybe it's a funeral thing but I heard the same things. between giving the universe the middle finger and being with my family, I was inundated with religion when I went back east to bury my friend. so there was the service, then my dad's birthday, so I went to mass with my sister, then I went to a novena with her, oh, then I sat shiva for three nights. this righteous god was front and center..

and I.just.didn't. get.it.

[Dianna]

grateful

wow! that's big. well done. it's so hard to watch people be so mis-guided. so full of their own agenda and ways that they can't see that their ways lack meaning for so many. and your friend's memory waiting.

Oh the end result was so different than that first meeting. These people came in so angry and blaming and cold. In the first half hour I heard the word "demonic", "Illuminati", and "brain-washed". I was actually beginning to think the deceased was right, it was better they didn't come, and they weren't really showing signs of loss or grief or that they loved him. Usually people put their differences aside.

They wanted certain hymns sung, and the notes of the speech they wanted read looked more like, "Sinners in the Hand of an Angry God". My duty was to the deceased, He'd taken the time to select the music, he had personal letters he wanted handed out to certain people, and for me to read certain things to others and the list of what foods he would like served - even with notes because someone was allergic to nuts and another lactose intolerant!

I didn't want to put his family's views down, just get them to realize who he was, what was important to him, and that his views were as valid to him as theirs were to them.

to your original post, what you wrote in red was terribly spot on - it illustrates the particular reasons that I can't/won't worship this loving god of theirs. because I just don't see it..

The bit in red was written after that first meeting. I'd listened to two speeches of their justification for believing their son was in hell suffering eternal torment. I'm a Skeptic, and logical and it was hard to follow the reasoning for their son to be in hell because of a legend of Adam and Eve. No one was there. There was no witnesses who wrote about it. Just words from someone who wrote down a story that had been passed down. Somehow they got to the end result and somehow felt God's love through Jesus. I came to an entirely different conclusion based on the history of the battle cry, "In the name of God!"

Believe me, it was very hard to sit politely and answer tactfully and diplomatically. That's why I later wrote what I did (the red bit).

maybe it's a funeral thing but I heard the same things. between giving the universe the middle finger and being with my family, I was inundated with religion when I went back east to bury my friend. so there was the service, then my dad's birthday, so I went to mass with my sister, then I went to a novena with her, oh, then I sat shiva for three nights. this righteous god was front and center..

and I.just.didn't. get.it.

I'm sorry you went through the rounds. That's quite the diversity of mourning styles!

I sat shiva for my husband when I lived in Israel, but because of Sukkot that started in the evening, the mourning time was cut off, down from days to about three hours. I think he got ripped off.

I'm just grateful his family listened to their son's beliefs (unfortunately not while he was alive), and decided against going through with their own church memorial service at the same time. Almost like a competition. Nothing like further dividing things. I think after we shared a laugh then two, and started opening up and weren't so defensive, and listened to what and why their son believed and wanted certain things included in his own service, his sister told me she didn't think he was in hell either, because he was such a good person.

It was a beautiful service, mostly because of the memories his large group of friends, but also his family offered up, and a learning situation for both sides. I know I did. That will be my final memories of a special person.

Edited June 15, 2013 by Dianna

[Atwater Vitki]

It's a warm blessing and wonderful thing that the situation turned out the way they did. I too have suffered the "conflict" discussed here and agree it is terribly difficult to keep calm with nothing but closed minds surrounding you and demanding things be done their way. Our deepest regards to you and yours as well as your friend's family in their time of grief as well.

I'm also glad to see the topic got back on track and hope in the future this sort of unintentional straying from the initial topic and oversight won't become the norm.

Blessings of Healing, Strength and Peace,

[Pete]

Dan said in post 48 " And I believe in Islam, just not the Muslims spin on it. I don't accept anything the Koran says, I don't believe Mohammad was a prophet, and I'd never accept a tyrannical God like Allah.

Dan what you fail to understand is that I do not see the description of God as in the OT as any less tyrannical than Allah. I do believe Allah is Yahweh but I guess you do not, but that said I just do not believe all that is said about Yahweh or Allah. If you want me to talk about the violent descriptions of Yahweh in the OT then I am happy to do that as it does fit with the topic title.

Dianna, Much respect for your post..

[BrDevon]

...the candles at the memorial are snuffed out one by one as one after another names what they will miss most about the person. At the end, the room is dark except for one candle, symbolizing the emptiness the person left behind. But there’s that one candle, representing as long as they are remembered, they aren’t gone. One by one now, someone tells of a special memory of something the deceased said or did. One by one the candles are relit. As long as we remember, he isn’t gone.

I have seen this done in other funeral and memorial services, for similar reasons. Even though where I have seen it done, the belief was that the soul of the deceased does survive life as we know it, the other principles remain common: we can remember the good that a person brought to this life, we will miss the person, but truly, as long as we remember someone, we have not truly lost him or her.

My grandmother did not have a "funeral," but a "going home." I want the same. I do not want to be mourned. If I had any positive effect on someone's life, I want them to celebrate that good. I don't want to be missed. I would love it if I left a mindset of good that someone wished to "pay it forward." I have been blessed to be able to live a life serving others. I would think it a true honoring of my memory for others to serve when they are able to.

Edited June 16, 2013 by BrDevon

[Dan56]

Dan said in post 48 " And I believe in Islam, just not the Muslims spin on it. I don't accept anything the Koran says, I don't believe Mohammad was a prophet, and I'd never accept a tyrannical God like Allah.

Dan what you fail to understand is that I do not see the description of God as in the OT as any less tyrannical than Allah. I do believe Allah is Yahweh but I guess you do not, but that said I just do not believe all that is said about Yahweh or Allah. If you want me to talk about the violent descriptions of Yahweh in the OT then I am happy to do that as it does fit with the topic title.

My comment in red was an attempt at humor, thus the smiley face. When I wrote "I believe in Islam" I was kind of mimicking the way you believe in Christianity, i.e. You believe in Christianity, you just don't accept anything the bible says, don't believe Jesus is the Savior, and could never accept a tyrannical God like YHVH.

But sarcasm aside, yes I'm aware of the violence committed by the OT God. The difference between us is that I accept God's righteous indignation against sin and agree with His judgements. But I certainly understand why pacifist would find God's wrath to be somewhat disturbing.

[Dianna]

... we can remember the good that a person brought to this life, we will miss the person, but truly, as long as we remember someone, we have not truly lost him or her.

I agree. When it all is said and done, funerals are to help those left behind to cope and move on in a positive way. According to my mom, that candle ceremony was used at my great-grandmother's funeral. I enjoy hearing of other people's special ceremonies and adding to my repertoire.

. . . I do not want to be mourned. If I had any positive effect on someone's life, I want them to celebrate that good. I don't want to be missed. I would love it if I left a mindset of good that someone wished to "pay it forward."

Imagine if that was the effect of this entire generation on the next generation. But I think you've affected many. You may not ever know all of them.

[grateful]

I hope they do a celebration of some sort, with flute and bagpipes and lots of guitar oh, and dogs should be welcome ..

one person has changed the fabric of that family good for you! better for them, right?

I loved that she wanted a hug!

[Pete]

My comment in red was an attempt at humor, thus the smiley face. When I wrote "I believe in Islam" I was kind of mimicking the way you believe in Christianity, i.e. You believe in Christianity, you just don't accept anything the bible says, don't believe Jesus is the Savior, and could never accept a tyrannical God like YHVH.

But sarcasm aside, yes I'm aware of the violence committed by the OT God. The difference between us is that I accept God's righteous indignation against sin and agree with His judgements. But I certainly understand why pacifist would find God's wrath to be somewhat disturbing.

Just for your info Dan I am not a pacifist although I hate violence. I reckon there are times when it is needed, however the OT is littered things I do not see as righteous. You call that God's actions but I just see it as something someone said about God but not something I believe. What you accept is the biblical account on God as just and I do not. I do not even believe half of it ever happened and I do not believe God sent any plague to kill innocent people just because David was a naughty boy. As for righteousness in the bible, one only has to look at some of the so called God given laws to set me with much to question it by.

http://www.evilbible.com/evils%20of%20the%20torah.htm

Edited June 16, 2013 by Pete

[Dan56]

Just for your info Dan I am not a pacifist although I hate violence. I reckon there are times when it is needed, however the OT is littered things I do not see as righteous. You call that God's actions but I just see it as something someone said about God but not something I believe. What you accept is the biblical account on God as just and I do not. I do not even believe half of it ever happened and I do not believe God sent any plague to kill innocent people just because David was a naughty boy. As for righteousness in the bible, one only has to look at some of the so called God given laws to set me with much to question it by.

Mosaic Law (ordinances) were instituted to govern and preserve God's people up to the coming of Messiah. God's methodology of controlling and punishing sin was by law, but we are no longer under the 613-622 points of the law, but under the dispensation of grace. So I wouldn't get hung-up on all the statutes that were never designed for you, but established to preserve a way to reconciliation. We are all condemned by law, but justified via our faith in Christ. David sought and received reconciliation because of this promise. I believe God's anger was against Israel for murdering people that they promised to leave alone. If you don't understand the punishment of sin as righteous, then perhaps you should question your own motivation for justifying sin. If your not a pacifist, why insist that God be one? JMO

[Pete]

And what a law it was and the bible says it was God given. If I believed this then I would be worried about the morals of God.:-

Deuteronomy 25:11 "When men strive together one with another, and the wife of one drawth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taken him by the secrets: 12 Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her. KJV

Leviticus 21:9 "And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire. " KJV

Deuteronomy 17:12 "And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel." KJV

Chronicles 15:12-13 " ¹² And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul;¹³ That whosoever would not seek the Lord God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman."

Exodus 31:12-15 "And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

¹³ Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.

¹⁴ Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

¹⁵ Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death." KJV

Edited June 18, 2013 by Pete

[Dan56]

And what a law it was and the bible says it was God given. If I believed this then I would be worried about the morals of God.:-

Deuteronomy 25:11 "When men strive together one with another, and the wife of one drawth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taken him by the secrets: 12 Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her. KJV

Leviticus 21:9 "And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire. " KJV

Deuteronomy 17:12 "And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel." KJV

Chronicles 15:12-13 " ¹² And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul;¹³ That whosoever would not seek the Lord God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman."

Exodus 31:12-15 "And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

¹³ Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.

¹⁴ Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

¹⁵ Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death." KJV

Those all seem like easy rules to obey.... For ladies, don't grab a guys nuts during a fight, and if your Dad is a priest, don't be a whore. Surely you can understand why castrating an innocent guy is immoral, and why it looks bad for a priest to have a fornicating tramp for a daughter?

Accept your punishment when a judge sentences you, seek God and don't reject him, and don't work on Saturdays. Yes, its understandable why you might worry about God's morals, the nerve of that guy for giving everyone a day-off every week.

We may think God’s laws in the Old Testament were cruel, but in reality these laws prevented many crimes. Strict punishment works as a great deterrent. Many have a difficult time reconciling God's love vs. God's righteousness, but God's love requires justice, so in order to maintain a degree of righteousness in the House of Israel, God judged their sin. JMO

Edited June 19, 2013 by Dan56