Man: Good, Evil, Or Undecided?

[Dan56]

I believe humans are good.

"..There is none good but one, that is, God" (Mark 10:18) "I am the good shepherd" (John 10:11).. These verses pretty much narrow down who's actually good.

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags" (Isaiah 64:6). It seems that God isn't too impressed with how good we are

if someone is faithful, ie, they believe in God and choose to obey Christ and be in relationship with them...but still occasionally sins, doesn't your definition still make them evil?

Sin is breaking God's law, it doesn't necessarily make a person evil, just disobedient.

[Ex Nihilo]

So, iyo, is there an area between good and evil where one can be have faith but be disobedient, if so what do you call it?

[Cornelius]

So, iyo, is there an area between good and evil where one can be have faith but be disobedient, if so what do you call it?

Christianity

[Bro. Hex]

~ Yep, definitions again, huh? ...

...To me 'Evil' is harming others in whatever way & not caring or even taking pleasure in it.

{ Not counting consensual encounters, whatever makes everyone happy! }

I believe that most everyone does not intend harm to others.

Some do. But not the majority.

I like your "take" on such things, Qryos,

It is not necessarily "what I believe"...

but it IS pretty much what I WANT to believe to be true.

[Dan56]

So, iyo, is there an area between good and evil where one can be have faith but be disobedient, if so what do you call it?

Yes, we are all disobedient, that's sin and we all commit sin. But that doesn't mean that we don't have faith and it doesn't necessarily make us evil. Remember that Peter denied that he even knew Christ, but Peter wasn't evil. We have faith but our faith isn't perfect, we all have moments of weakness and slip-up, that's the battle, that's the struggle, and that's the purpose of repentance. So imo, there's no gray area between good and evil, sin boils down to disobedience and a lack of discipline, while evil is the acceptance of bad in place of good. Its not likely that an evil person would even want to try and follow the example of Christ.

[Qryos]

~ Hi Dan

Yes, I'm gonna ask questions, just because Im easily confused & I know you're patient with me

Thankx!

If a person does something horrid repeatedly, revelling in it, repents as dying, in your belief they're OK then?

That's difficult for some to understand.

The concept of 'Hell', as Eternal Punishment for those that have done horrible things,

that does assist some people that have been harmed badly in their lives by others within your belief, yes?

Or am I wrong?

I'm probably confused as usual, & I apologise for being annoying!

[Dan56]

~ Hi Dan

If a person does something horrid repeatedly, revelling in it, repents as dying, in your belief they're OK then?

That's difficult for some to understand.

The concept of 'Hell', as Eternal Punishment for those that have done horrible things,

that does assist some people that have been harmed badly in their lives by others within your belief, yes?

Yes, upon repentance all but one sin is forgivable. But God is not mocked and knows the sincerity of a death bed repenter. And yes, vengeance belongs to God, and I think many Christians take solace in knowing that no sin will go unanswered. "Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head" (Romans 12:20). "It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones" (Luke 17:2). I believe that's why Christ told us to pray for our enemies, to help them change, repent, and be corrected, instead of having to endure an awful fate, the wrath of God.

[Fawzo]

Yes, upon repentance all but one sin is forgivable. But God is not mocked and knows the sincerity of a death bed repenter. And yes, vengeance belongs to God, and I think many Christians take solace in knowing that no sin will go unanswered.

If no sin goes unanswered Daniel then what exactly was the point of the Cross. I thought the blood and death of Yeshua paid the price for all sins for all times.

Those Christians who would take solace in knowing that no sin goes unanswered would seem to suffer from a lack of love, compassion and empathy for others. But I guess that is what one should expect from a belief system that is built squarely on the concepts of sin, death and guilt.

Edited October 21, 2012 by Fawzo

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

Yes, upon repentance all but one sin is forgivable. But God is not mocked and knows the sincerity of a death bed repenter. And yes, vengeance belongs to God, and I think many Christians take solace in knowing that no sin will go unanswered. "Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head" (Romans 12:20). "It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones" (Luke 17:2). I believe that's why Christ told us to pray for our enemies, to help them change, repent, and be corrected, instead of having to endure an awful fate, the wrath of God.

So much for -- "God is love."

[Dan56]

If no sin goes unanswered Daniel then what exactly was the point of the Cross. I thought the blood and death of Yeshua paid the price for all sins for all times.

You are correct sir... but only to the extent that believers are justified through Christ. Nonbelievers are judged by the law, their sins are not washed in the blood of the lamb because they've rejected His sacrifice. Therefore, they are accountable for their sins.

Those Christians who would take solace in knowing that no sin goes unanswered would seem to suffer from a lack of love, compassion and empathy for others. But I guess that is what one should expect from a belief system that is built squarely on the concepts of sin, death and guilt.

Not at all... Ever wonder why those pesky Christians are always preaching the salvation of Christ? Its because they do have compassion for others and want them to be saved. We take solace in that righteousness will reign in the end, everyone will answer for their choices, and everyone will reap what they sow. That's a system built on justice, repentance, and everlasting life.

[Fawzo]

You are correct sir... but only to the extent that believers are justified through Christ. Nonbelievers are judged by the law, their sins are not washed in the blood of the lamb because they've rejected His sacrifice. Therefore, they are accountable for their sins.

Then again I must state that the cross and blood of Jesus meant nothing and it is the very act of belief and acceptance on the part of the believer that is the pivotal point of salvation. It is not the blood and death of Jesus which means anything but rather the mindset and focus of the believer. Salvation comes through your own mental activities and the cross and bloodshed are nothing more than a focal point which could have been belief in anyone or anything anywhere in the Universe.

Not at all... Ever wonder why those pesky Christians are always preaching the salvation of Christ? Its because they do have compassion for others and want them to be saved. We take solace in that righteousness will reign in the end, everyone will answer for their choices, and everyone will reap what they sow. That's a system built on justice, repentance, and everlasting life.

No according to the Bible not everyone will answer as most Christians think God is blinded to the sin of the faithful by the blood of Jesus. Also Jesus and John the Baptist forgave sins through ritual, so tell me were all those people forgiven for their offenses in God's eyes or not.

In most instances those proselytizing have sinned against God and their fellow humans by judging others as sinners in the eyes of God. As ye judge so shall ye be judged. The reason for this is everything and everyone is an extension of God and to judge any portion of God as less then God keeps you separated from the knowledge and experience of the Oneness and Inter-connectedness of all things.

Edited October 22, 2012 by Fawzo

[Dan56]

Then again I must state that the cross and blood of Jesus meant nothing and it is the very act of belief and acceptance on the part of the believer that is the pivotal point of salvation. It is not the blood and death of Jesus which means anything but rather the mindset and focus of the believer. Salvation comes through your own mental activities and the cross and bloodshed are nothing more than a focal point which could have been belief in anyone or anything anywhere in the Universe.

Its the sacrifice of Christ for the remission of sins that brings salvation to those who believe. "He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed" (Isaiah 53:5). No one else in the universe could or would have done what Christ did.

[Fawzo]

Its the sacrifice of Christ for the remission of sins that brings salvation to those who believe. "He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed" (Isaiah 53:5). No one else in the universe could or would have done what Christ did.

I call BS because I would do it and I know many more who would do it if in fact that were the case to save mankind. You can't be serious, Buddhist monks light themselves on fire to protest a lot less trivial things.

God should learn some compassion and mercy and become cognizant of what the word "forgiveness" means. It doesn't mean extortion and it doesn't mean extraction. According to the Bible Jesus died for the "extraction" of sins and surely not the forgiveness of sins. A big difference. One you get from a loving compassionate person the other a tyrant. Which do you serve and worship?

Edited October 23, 2012 by Fawzo

[Dan56]

I call BS because I would do it and I know many more who would do it if in fact that were the case to save mankind. You can't be serious, Buddhist monks light themselves on fire to protest a lot less trivial things.

God should learn some compassion and mercy and become cognizant of what the word "forgiveness" means. It doesn't mean extortion and it doesn't mean extraction. According to the Bible Jesus died for the "extraction" of sins and surely not the forgiveness of sins. A big difference. One you get from a loving compassionate person the other a tyrant. Which do you serve and worship?

No one else could have done it because no one else is perfect (sinless). Jesus wasn't a Buddhist protester, he was God incarnate, the unblemished lamb of God who took the sins of the world upon himself. Our deaths can't remove sin, it would be like trying to dry a floor with a wet mop.

God's forgiveness is unconditional for all who believe in him and repent of their sins, there's no extortion about it, its 100% voluntary. Steal a car and see if a judge has compassion and lets you go free just because you regret it, there would be no justice in that. Forgiveness alone does not erase sin, sins can only be extracted when atonement is made. What Christ did transcends mercy, compassion, and forgiveness, he suffered and died so others might live, and In my book that's not something a tyrant would do. You sure have a pessimistic way of looking at things.

[Fawzo]

God's forgiveness is unconditional for all who believe in him and repent of their sins, there's no extortion about it, its 100% voluntary.

Dan that statement is ridiculous. You are saying that God's forgiveness is unconditional only under the conditions that one believe in him and repent of their sins. Somehow you don't see that these are conditions one must meet before God's forgiveness is unconditional.

Steal a car and see if a judge has compassion and lets you go free just because you regret it, there would be no justice in that. Forgiveness alone does not erase sin, sins can only be extracted when atonement is made. What Christ did transcends mercy, compassion, and forgiveness, he suffered and died so others might live, and In my book that's not something a tyrant would do. You sure have a pessimistic way of looking at things.

Dan a human judge is not God and did not create me and does not bear all, endure and never fail me with unconditional love and compassion. Your analogy between humans and an Omniscient God does not work either.

I hope one day you experience what True Love and Forgiveness is. I can tell from your writings that you have not had that experience as of yet or you would not write half the stuff I see posted.

[Dan56]

I hope one day you experience what True Love and Forgiveness is. I can tell from your writings that you have not had that experience as of yet or you would not write half the stuff I see posted.

The type of love that you describe is not the kind of love I'm interested in. Its abusive, selfish and unjust. If God loved sin, evil, and unrighteousness, I would not want to be a part of his kingdom. Unconditional love doesn't work, its an empty one-way street, and it can only exist in an unjust environment. An unconditional 'love me no matter what' type of love embraces every unrighteous aspect of a person, and that's a dangerous kind of love where people inevitably get hurt. Love is a commitment, and a commitment requires a degree of discipline.

[Fawzo]

The type of love that you describe is not the kind of love I'm interested in. Its abusive, selfish and unjust. If God loved sin, evil, and unrighteousness, I would not want to be a part of his kingdom. Unconditional love doesn't work, its an empty one-way street, and it can only exist in an unjust environment. An unconditional 'love me no matter what' type of love embraces every unrighteous aspect of a person, and that's a dangerous kind of love where people inevitably get hurt. Love is a commitment, and a commitment requires a degree of discipline.

Ok Dan how it is abusive, it merely generates love and acceptance of everyone trying to impart pure wisdom and knowledge to all who listen and receive. It doesn't force anything on anyone at anytime. How can it be selfish when it gives expecting nothing in return, nothing Dan it expects not a single thing in return it gives and gives and gives unceasingly expecting nothing in return unconditionally. Your definition of selfish, must be in the same book as your definition of forgiveness.

Dan the Divine doesn't love the fear based actions of Sin and un-right-ness of the beings whom it loves and sheds it's blessings on, but it still accepts and still loves the person who performs such, hoping that the person will become aware of the Oneness of all things and become cognizant of the fact that Christ is All and in All and opt for the right-use of their thoughts and actions. The Holy Spirit is an aide to this purpose.

Your degrees of discipline are merely "conditions" which you have placed on your love which is based in the fear that God cannot protect and keep you safely in his heart and mind and arms.

[Qryos]

~ Personally, I find patience to be a really important part of love

I am not a Christian, as ya all know. I'm just always curious about how others believe so I better undestand { because I'm often confused }

I do believe understanding leads to more peaceful conversations rather than arguements... Well, I always hope so

Dan, just wondering...

Do you deeply believe that how ever good a person is, whatever their wonderful deeds, if they are not New Testament Christian they are doomed?

Because then Hon, I'm sorry to disapoint you. Really. I don't want to diasapoint you...

I will continue to be the best person I can possibly be. Promise!

... I'm not going to post any more here because any further questions would be probably be considered offensive

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

What exactly is evil?

There are some things which can not be defined. The best we can do is state their characteristics.

A perfect example is "life." What are the characteristics of life? They are: growth, movement, reproduction, digestion, elimination, respiration, etc. Life as such, can not be defined. What is more basic than life? What is more important than the difference between living, nonliving and dead?

In the same way, we can define the characteristics of evil. Evil can not be defined. Neither can we define good.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Dan56]

Ok Dan how it is abusive, it merely generates love and acceptance of everyone trying to impart pure wisdom and knowledge to all who listen and receive. It doesn't force anything on anyone at anytime. How can it be selfish when it gives expecting nothing in return, nothing Dan it expects not a single thing in return it gives and gives and gives unceasingly expecting nothing in return unconditionally. Your definition of selfish, must be in the same book as your definition of forgiveness.

Dan the Divine doesn't love the fear based actions of Sin and un-right-ness of the beings whom it loves and sheds it's blessings on, but it still accepts and still loves the person who performs such, hoping that the person will become aware of the Oneness of all things and become cognizant of the fact that Christ is All and in All and opt for the right-use of their thoughts and actions. The Holy Spirit is an aide to this purpose.

Your degrees of discipline are merely "conditions" which you have placed on your love which is based in the fear that God cannot protect and keep you safely in his heart and mind and arms.

Loving sin and evil only perpetuates sin and evil. Nondiscriminatory love towards someone like Charles Manson is tantamount to a stamp of approval towards the bad and harmful things he did. For God to unconditionally love a mass murderer, He would simultaneously be condemning the victims of the murderer. Pure love must therefore be bound in justice, otherwise it punishes the innocent and rewards the guilty. When God corrects and disciplines, its a demonstration of His love, not a selfish cry for attention.

Dan, just wondering...

Do you deeply believe that how ever good a person is, whatever their wonderful deeds, if they are not New Testament Christian they are doomed?

Because then Hon, I'm sorry to disapoint you. Really. I don't want to diasapoint you...

I will continue to be the best person I can possibly be. Promise!

... I'm not going to post any more here because any further questions would be probably be considered offensive.

Part of being Christian is believing that salvation only comes through Christ. Being good is not good enough, although its an admirable trait. From a biblical perspective, sin equals death and we have all sinned. God will judge, but my faith clearly states that we are only perfected in Christ, and since we cannot save ourselves, those who reject Jesus cannot enter the Kingdom of God. Of course, there are also not-so-conservative Christians who think differently (Hex-Pete).

I've never been offended here, no question or discussion is offensive, so feel free to write whatever you want. I'm usually the one that others find offensive because I have a very narrow one-dimensional view of God. None of us think the same though, so don't worry about offending anyone that you disagree with. As I've mention before; "Remove all pride and its impossible to be offended". Fawzo has never offended me, and trust me, your not even in his league

In the same way, we can define the characteristics of evil. Evil can not be defined. Neither can we define good.

Imo, God is good, evil is a direct or indirect consequence of sin.