Liberal Christianity 2

[Fawzo]

Notice how you lay all the blame on God in your synopsis. That is one of the oldest tricks in the book. Adam did the same thing.

Who created the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil and placed it into the garden. Who also cast Satan onto the earth and did not prevent his perfect creation from being tempted by him. God had a whole Universe and many dimensions into which Satan could have been cast.

Who designed the human brain which comes out of the package badly restricted and full of ignorance.

The vast majority of we humans "sin" or err because we are ignorant and unaware of the purpose and will of God for our lives. I can't consider that "sin" myself. If one experiences deity personally and is aware and has knowledge of God's Will and then behaves contrarily, I could consider that sin. Notice I said "knowledge" of God's will and not "belief" of what God's will is according to somebody else or some book presumed to be Holy.

Everything is going exactly according to God's plans isn't it?

Edited June 26, 2010 by Fawzo

[RevRainbow]

Pete, I do understand why you and Fawzo (and no doubt others here) see the bible as such. May I present a slightly different perspective.

Back in those days and prior, everyone, in one way or another, was sacrificing something or someone to their gods. We still do it today in non-bloody ways (although not everywhere) such as the "sacrifice" of the Mass in Catholicism.

While I believe God instituted animal and food sacrifices in the earlier days, by law, I believe He did so as a precurser to His own sacrifice. When God sacrificed a "portion" of Himself, it was an obvious statement as understood by the followers of Jesus that there was therefore no more sacrifice for sin to appease God. It was a done deal.

My reasoning says that God desires mercy not sacrifice and, by eliminating sin sacrifice, all that was left were sacrifices of thanksgiving and worship. I wonder how many folk understood that they were taking a living creature and ending its life to appease the God that created it! God's sacrifice settled the matter of sin and judgment so that worshipers now could concentrate on what was really important, spreading the love of God abroad in their hearts. No more spilled blood!

By being freed from the law of sin and death once and for all, we could concentrate on fulfilling the greatest commandment, of loving God and each other. One might beleive it was a symbolic death or that it really was necessary (I think it was), but the results are the same. By believing the Christ died for our sins as the lamb of God, we no longer worship God out of fear or "appease" Him with blood sacrifices or disfiguring penances, but are liberated to walk humbly with Him doing good things not out of fear but of love.

When one is forgiven, a wave of relief and thankfulness washes over them, for the burden of their trangression has been lifted. People back then feared God's judgments, as shown by some of the documented ones, which were related as perceived by the writers. Sadly, today, many Christian faiths, and religions, have placed their congregations back under the law of this fear of being in the hands of an angry God. In addition, Jesus never forced anyone to believe in Him and today that should also be the case. God does not want converts by coercion or force. It is not the numbers that count but the hearts of those who truly seek Him.

I believe the sacrifice of Christ is meant for all who will believe it regardless of their depth of understanding it or their religious views. God wants us to have fellowship, a relationship, with Him and we continue to separate ourselves from this intimacy because a) we don't see the need for forgiveness in our life and/or b) we won't receive it. Another sad reason is that many who claim to beleive have all but driven others away due to their actions and judgmental-ism.

Remember that initially, Jews who followed Jesus and later believed in the Atonement, were still Jews. And these early followers accepted (after some debate) those of other persuasions, eg: Gentiles,not forcing them to convert to or follow Judaic principles. We must understand that if one believes in Jesus as the Christ, one does not have to convert to anything.

Rainbow, are you saying that a Wiccan or a Buddhist can believe on Jesus and not change their religion? Yes, that is what I am saying. It is not a matter of religion as much as it is a matter of believing God. If one seeks God with all their heart, it will be God who leads that person to where they should be. Perhaps that person will be led to a different place and perhaps not. It is a personal matter of trust. I was a Catholic but eventually, I left that form of religion because I was being led somewhere else. Others I knew stayed.

Once we are in Christ, there are no more Wiccans or Buddhists or Catholics, because we become ONE in the Spirit. Is that so hard to understand? If we are led by the Spirit of God, regardless of who or what we are, by our faith in Christ, the Great Mediator, we will all wind up in the same place eventually. We walk by faith, not by sight.

It is my contention that eventually, if we trust in God and have faith in Christ, we will put away the childish things such as religions, no longer worshiping in buildings of stone but in spirit and truth. We ourselves become the temple of God, for He is within us.

[Fawzo]

I disagree Fawzo and would say that the approach you are describing disregards what was given to us to help us know God and know about God.

I understand that you disagree because I personally feel your perspective of where the "Knowledge of God" may come is extremely narrow and limiting. The Tao Te Ching, Bhagavad Gita, Upanishads, Dharmapada, Course in Miracles etc etc and all of nature are useful sources for myself. I am not just limited to the Bible and disregarding anything from my vantage point.

And here comes the pride statement where you claim that you are farther advanced spiritually than those who participate in organized religion. Not much has changed.

I don't ever remember publicly claiming that I am farther advanced than anyone. I do feel that "The Path" I have chosen is a more accelerated path to the ones other have chosen as right for them. I will be the first to admit I have a ways to go, and all paths no matter how twisted eventually lead to the one merging point IMHO. To be quite honest isn't it a bit dishonest not to say that one feels like their path is the perfect one for them and wouldn't a person be a bit unwise traveling a path that takes the long way.

So I am quite sure that while not spoken, each and everyone of us here think our paths are best. I didn't say best for everyone just best. So if that is pride then I would say we all might be guilty.

The Old Testament is rich with examples of God's love and mercy. I have spent too much time trying to explain this to people on this forum, who have political reasons and personal reasons for holding that portion of the Bible in disdain, who use their faulty understanding of the Old Testament to encourage themselves that they should continue to disregard and criticize it, and encourage others to adapt the same philosophy regarding it. BUT, you are in luck! I am in between classes and the time to give you a brief summary that may help.

Yes we are always in luck when you are present more often brother.

Yes the OT is rich with examples of love and mercy, but so too are the stories of love and tenderness of abusive husbands and we hear them quite often from the abused who defend the very person inflicting pain and suffering onto them., sometimes unto death.

Now, the ball is in your court. You can consider this brief outline as you reflect on what you know about the Bible.

Regarding the claims that the Bible is full of fables, you have to conclude that on your own. Jonah and the fish, well, Jesus who came back from the dead believed it was historical and not mythical. Regarding the attempts to superimpose to cultural and ritual demands of the Torah on society today, or to even suggest that it is proper to impose those culture demands today misses the point. That culture is long gone, however, the moral and ethical principals expressed are timeless and should be observed; per Jesus and Paul.

Slavery, selling your daughter, treating other people and nations as unclean and treating them as if they are dogs aren't very morally or ethically proper from my vantage point.

The Bible has its pluses and minuses. The Sermon on the Mount I see as a gigantic plus, while other portions are sheer goat herding feces from my perspective. Other cultures and other sacred writings have just as many and maybe more precious gems to offer. I personally feel that Buddhism gives me a better understanding of the circumstances that lead to my suffering and feelings of separation from the Divine.

[Coolhand]

It wasn't Satan that gave Miriam leprosy, or that forced Ananias and his wife Sapphira to give up the ghost and drop dead. It wasn't Satan that had 70,000 Hebrews killed because David took a census.

The Bible clearly portrays the earth as God's footstool. He controls the waves of the sea and the winds of the air. Not a sparrow falls that god is not aware of and the very hairs on our head are numbered by God.

God is in complete control according to the Bible.

I will agree with your last statement of "God's chastening is to restore us, not destroy us." but someone needs to remind Noah's flood victims and Sodom and Gomorrah

Good points, but let's not make the mistake of confusing God's chastening with God's judgment. God's judgment is something totally different; judgment does comes when people continually rebel against God. If you are going to look at the instances where God judges rebellion against Him (which He is clear about, which He says He will do), then you are causing your own stumbling block in understanding the big picture.

These judgments from God never came because someone made a simple mistake either. They came because of a planned and premeditated conspiracy against God. Don't forget that either.

[Coolhand]

Regarding my question that I believe you have not answered. It is not enough (IMO) to say that you understand the will of God and then dismiss the question by saying that is up to God with no further explanation that can proven and are not based in hearsay or myth. Somethings may or may of not happened in that past but I do not believe the bible is in anyway proof that they did occur. Blaming all on Satan is a great cop out (imo) but one still then has to acknowledge who it is who created Satan and is allowing Satan (in you description) to reek havoc and refuses to prevent this until some unknown time (perhaps after an extended tea break) in the future. Then you ask me to put confidence in God as described in the bible as being loving.

Well Pete, are you saying that you do not understand authority, power, and dominion? I am saying that God does not override established authority, power, and dominion unless He is invited to by the one or the group that is being oppressed.

I want to focus on this part here with you Pete. Please respond (Pete) specifically to the above post.

[Fawzo]

Rainbow, are you saying that a Wiccan or a Buddhist can believe on Jesus and not change their religion? Yes, that is what I am saying. It is not a matter of religion as much as it is a matter of believing God. If one seeks God with all their heart, it will be God who leads that person to where they should be. Perhaps that person will be led to a different place and perhaps not. It is a personal matter of trust. I was a Catholic but eventually, I left that form of religion because I was being led somewhere else. Others I knew stayed.

Once we are in Christ, there are no more Wiccans or Buddhists or Catholics, because we become ONE in the Spirit. Is that so hard to understand? If we are led by the Spirit of God, regardless of who or what we are, by our faith in Christ, the Great Mediator, we will all wind up in the same place eventually. We walk by faith, not by sight.

It is my contention that eventually, if we trust in God and have faith in Christ, we will put away the childish things such as religions, no longer worshiping in buildings of stone but in spirit and truth. We ourselves become the temple of God, for He is within us.

Great Post Dude!

I can see sacrifice as being used as an early stone age tool to help people learn that true love is about giving the best that you have to others. For early man I guess the best and most valued possesions would have been livestock for food and other cultures saw human themselves sometimes such as virgins as the best choice.

When Buddha and Jesus arrived man had reached a sophistication level and the ability to thrive and survive where the time for such actions was no longer necessary and our minds and technology had developed to the point where we had some spare time to relax and introspect more on our relationship with Divinity.

Rev Rainbow do you believe there is any difference in a person who has never heard of the sacrifice of Jesus yet still enjoys the harmony of living with the Divine and recognizing the Divine within all thing?.

Did God need the blood sacrifice on the cross, or was it more that we needed a symbol to bring our focus onto the lengths that God's love would go for us? If God wanted to forgive us he merely had to think it so. So if I walk in that love and forgiveness because I am aware of the magnificence of God's love taught to me by another tradition or through personal experience, what if anything do I miss out on by not being a Christian or having ever read the Bible?

I know you already answered this in your previous post but I was hoping to get your responses framed in this manner for all to see.

[Pete]

Pete, I do understand why you and Fawzo (and no doubt others here) see the bible as such. May I present a slightly different perspective.

Back in those days and prior, everyone, in one way or another, was sacrificing something or someone to their gods. We still do it today in non-bloody ways (although not everywhere) such as the "sacrifice" of the Mass in Catholicism.

While I believe God instituted animal and food sacrifices in the earlier days, by law, I believe He did so as a precurser to His own sacrifice. When God sacrificed a "portion" of Himself, it was an obvious statement as understood by the followers of Jesus that there was therefore no more sacrifice for sin to appease God. It was a done deal.

My reasoning says that God desires mercy not sacrifice and, by eliminating sin sacrifice, all that was left were sacrifices of thanksgiving and worship. I wonder how many folk understood that they were taking a living creature and ending its life to appease the God that created it! God's sacrifice settled the matter of sin and judgment so that worshipers now could concentrate on what was really important, spreading the love of God abroad in their hearts. No more spilled blood!

By being freed from the law of sin and death once and for all, we could concentrate on fulfilling the greatest commandment, of loving God and each other. One might beleive it was a symbolic death or that it really was necessary (I think it was), but the results are the same. By believing the Christ died for our sins as the lamb of God, we no longer worship God out of fear or "appease" Him with blood sacrifices or disfiguring penances, but are liberated to walk humbly with Him doing good things not out of fear but of love.

When one is forgiven, a wave of relief and thankfulness washes over them, for the burden of their trangression has been lifted. People back then feared God's judgments, as shown by some of the documented ones, which were related as perceived by the writers. Sadly, today, many Christian faiths, and religions, have placed their congregations back under the law of this fear of being in the hands of an angry God. In addition, Jesus never forced anyone to believe in Him and today that should also be the case. God does not want converts by coercion or force. It is not the numbers that count but the hearts of those who truly seek Him.

I believe the sacrifice of Christ is meant for all who will believe it regardless of their depth of understanding it or their religious views. God wants us to have fellowship, a relationship, with Him and we continue to separate ourselves from this intimacy because a) we don't see the need for forgiveness in our life and/or b) we won't receive it. Another sad reason is that many who claim to beleive have all but driven others away due to their actions and judgmental-ism.

Remember that initially, Jews who followed Jesus and later believed in the Atonement, were still Jews. And these early followers accepted (after some debate) those of other persuasions, eg: Gentiles,not forcing them to convert to or follow Judaic principles. We must understand that if one believes in Jesus as the Christ, one does not have to convert to anything.

Rainbow, are you saying that a Wiccan or a Buddhist can believe on Jesus and not change their religion? Yes, that is what I am saying. It is not a matter of religion as much as it is a matter of believing God. If one seeks God with all their heart, it will be God who leads that person to where they should be. Perhaps that person will be led to a different place and perhaps not. It is a personal matter of trust. I was a Catholic but eventually, I left that form of religion because I was being led somewhere else. Others I knew stayed.

Once we are in Christ, there are no more Wiccans or Buddhists or Catholics, because we become ONE in the Spirit. Is that so hard to understand? If we are led by the Spirit of God, regardless of who or what we are, by our faith in Christ, the Great Mediator, we will all wind up in the same place eventually. We walk by faith, not by sight.

It is my contention that eventually, if we trust in God and have faith in Christ, we will put away the childish things such as religions, no longer worshiping in buildings of stone but in spirit and truth. We ourselves become the temple of God, for He is within us.

I do not want to challenge your belief (some of which I am sympathetic too) but again appears based on the premise that the bible is based on fact. You start with the statement that God originally asked for sacrifices as described in the bible and lead on to the need for Jesus to be sacrificed. Well lets look at that. The Jews used to sacrifice things but I do not see that happening today and they mostly do not believe in Jesus or his teachings. What influenced them? It cannot be that they were influenced by the death of Jesus as a sacrifice once and for all.

I suspect that people develop and grow in their faith and whatever happened in the past, not all is acceptable to modern thought and that has more to do with the stopping of sacrifices. Heck! I would hate the job of a priest who used to have to sacrifice every thing all day.

According to Micah 6:8 " He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God. (NIV) ", a verse that I find pretty profound but that was spoken before Jesus can along and also the following verses were spoken by Jews long before Jesus came along too.

Jeremiah 7:22-23

22"For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.

23"But this is what I commanded them, saying, 'Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you.'

Psalm 40:6

6Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired;

My ears You have opened;

Burnt offering and sin offering You have not required.

Psalm 51:15-17

15 O Lord, open my lips,

That my mouth may declare Your praise.

16 For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it;

You are not pleased with burnt offering.

17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;

A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

I believe this is because the Jewish faith has grown since the early days.

This happens in Christianity too. No more do you get people crying out for the killing of a witch.

All I can say is a thanks that we do grow and do not always use the past as shackles in our faith.

Edited June 26, 2010 by Pete

[Pete]

Well Pete, are you saying that you do not understand authority, power, and dominion? I am saying that God does not override established authority, power, and dominion unless He is invited to by the one or the group that is being oppressed.

I want to focus on this part here with you Pete. Please respond (Pete) specifically to the above post.

So your saying that the reason 6 million Jews were slaughtered by evil Nazi psychos were because they forgot to pray to God to ask him to stop it. Sorry Cool I just do not buy that. I am definitely sure the Jews prayed long and hard about the persecution they were receiving and it still did not stop so many of them dying in the death camps.

Edited June 26, 2010 by Pete

[Fawzo]

Good points, but let's not make the mistake of confusing God's chastening with God's judgment. God's judgment is something totally different; judgment does comes when people continually rebel against God. If you are going to look at the instances where God judges rebellion against Him (which He is clear about, which He says He will do), then you are causing your own stumbling block in understanding the big picture.

These judgments from God never came because someone made a simple mistake either. They came because of a planned and premeditated conspiracy against God. Don't forget that either.

I have to say that I don't see it that way. Adam and Eve didn't premeditate anything and most the others if they had direct knowledge of God and his will I doubt there would be little premeditating as well.

If I had direct knowledge that God did not wish for me to speak out against the Bible then do you think I would be doing just that with such passion. The truth is my experiences have led me to believe that is exactly what his will is for me. If I had direct knowledge of what the "truth" really is do you think I would not scream it from the rooftops in every media possible for all to hear no matter what threats come my way.

You see God as a judge, and I don't see how it is possible to be agape love and judge anything. Agape love is acceptance, bearing all, enduring all and never failing me, no matter how far I dstance my own self from the love of God. It is not God that judges and condemns me, and sends me into oblivion, but myself that does so in ignorance and fear.

Well Pete, are you saying that you do not understand authority, power, and dominion? I am saying that God does not override established authority, power, and dominion unless He is invited to by the one or the group that is being oppressed.

Coolhand who in their Omniscience gave the dominion and authority to those entities with foreknowledge of their evil ways????

[Dan56]

Abraham

Moses

Joshua

David

Jesus

A good summarization of the characters used through history to bring about God's plan. Nice review.

Rainbow, are you saying that a Wiccan or a Buddhist can believe on Jesus and not change their religion? Yes, that is what I am saying.

Once we are in Christ, there are no more Wiccans or Buddhists or Catholics, because we become ONE in the Spirit. Is that so hard to understand?

Good post, I enjoyed your 'Open Pulpit' post too. My only disagreement, or lack of understanding, is with your 2 points listed above. They seem contrary since the first sentence says that a person can be Christian while still practicing Buddhism or the Wicca religion. While the second sentence implies there are no more Wiccans, Buddhists, or Catholics once we accept Christ. I agree with the latter.

[Dan56]

It is not God that judges and condemns me, and sends me into oblivion, but myself that does so in ignorance and fear.

No truer words were ever spoken

who in their Omniscience gave the dominion and authority to those entities with foreknowledge of their evil ways????

Who rejected the dominion of God (Tree of Life) and chose the evil entity? Who had foreknowledge that through Christ, all evil authority would be defeated, and eventually destroyed?

[Fawzo]

No truer words were ever spoken

But in my model an Agape loving Entity is always there open armed for when my ignorance subsides and I come to my senses. He has an eternity with no time restrictions or deadlines to beat. His plan can't fail and no condemned entity called Satan is going to win a larger percentage of souls then God, making God look rather inept. God will go out of his way to save one lost sheep. He hates to lose anything, especially those he so dearly loves and so generously gives his all to.

Who rejected the dominion of God (Tree of Life) and chose the evil entity? Who had foreknowledge that through Christ, all evil authority would be defeated, and eventually destroyed?

No one I know of on either question.

Many though choose actions based in fear and separation instead of love and compassion based on the perceptual existence of duality which leads to free will. Once again all parameters the master programmer allowed within his system with foreknowledge of the effects. Seems like sloppy programming, but with an Omniscient Entity It seems impossible for such lapses and it all must be intended as is. Unless he programs in his sleep!!!

[RevRainbow]

Rev Rainbow do you believe there is any difference in a person who has never heard of the sacrifice of Jesus yet still enjoys the harmony of living with the Divine and recognizing the Divine within all thing?.

Spiritually speaking, as a matter of only God knowing the hearts of mankind, I see no difference. God has removed any barriers from fellowship with Him, through Christ. If the sacrifice of Christ was retroactive for all who died trusting God before Jesus, it certainly can be applied to all who trust God and have not yet heard or understand, provided they are seeking after God and not their own vanities. This is my opinion.

It is not by works of righteousness that we ourselves do, but by His love and mercy we are saved and redeemed. It is the Spirit of God that reveals this to us through the preaching of the good news. What is the good news? That God loves us and came to us in the form of His Son to prove it by bearing our iniquities and through His sufferings we are healed.

Did God need the blood sacrifice on the cross, or was it more that we needed a symbol to bring our focus onto the lengths that God's love would go for us?

It was God's will that it be done this way. Certainly, the pain and suffering of Christ was not symbolic, it was real. Scripture says "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin." That is a heavy statement that God required blood, the death of innocence, to show the horrendous essence of evil. God, through Christ fulfilled this requirement once and for all. Note also that it was not just sacrifice but torture that Christ endured. His death was symbolic for all, it was you and I on that cross. His blood was payment for all, his scourging was for our healing also. I grant you it was a visual representation of a deeply spiritual matter so that we might understand in our limited capacity, then as well as now.

If God wanted to forgive us he merely had to think it so. So if I walk in that love and forgiveness because I am aware of the magnificence of God's love taught to me by another tradition or through personal experience, what if anything do I miss out on by not being a Christian or having ever read the Bible?

Yes, God could just think it so, but He Himself required more so as to prove to us, once again, the effects and cost of sin and His holiness. To answer your final question as best I can, according to my own understanding, I quote scripture: "Be not deceived for God is not mocked, for whatsoever a man sows, so shall he reap."

Therefore, if we sow mercy and forgiveness we shall receive mercy and forgiveness. If you see someone naked or sick or hungry and and feed them, cloth them and visit them in their need, you shall be as the Samaritan, who probably never read the bible, but acted out of compassion and love for someone he knew not. He fulfilled the greatest commandment and was honored for we read of his deeds even today. Funny though, the guy was neither Jew or Christian, was he.

I think it is when we stand alone before God, forsaking all that we have heard and read or obtained, willing to give it all up, and cry, "Abba, Father, I want YOU!" that the transformation begins and, I believe, it is the blood of Christ that makes it possible, whatever state of knowledge or ignorance you are in - just as you are.

I know you already answered this in your previous post but I was hoping to get your responses framed in this manner for all to see.

I am honored, Fawzo, that you give such weight to my thoughts and POV's. No one knows what our end shall be when we pass from this world. We place our hope in various religions and deities and even in ourselves (vanity of vanities!), and most of what we believe initially comes from our parents. I have found my faith in God and belief in Christ has not only sustained me through difficult times, but gives me great joy and peace every day. For myself, I KNOW it is a solid hope, the spiritual substance of my life, which is why I share when asked. My faith has grown far beyond the temporal religious aspects. I do not begrudge anyone who does not believe as I do, for it is a personal matter between them and their God. We shall all stand before God one day and give account. My hope is that others feel as comfortable with what the results will be as I do, Christian or not. Thank you, my friend, for this opportunity.

[Coolhand]

So your saying that the reason 6 million Jews were slaughtered by evil Nazi psychos were because they forgot to pray to God to ask him to stop it. Sorry Cool I just do not buy that. I am definitely sure the Jews prayed long and hard about the persecution they were receiving and it still did not stop so many of them dying in the death camps.

The short answer is that there is a strong demonic force behind Nazism whose sovereignty remained unchallenged which resulted in that tragedy.

Saying that someone forgot to pray (in my opinion) would be an understatement. I would add praying and fasting is required, but specifically praying in Jesus name and through His authority is the key.

Pete, you keep saying that I have not answered your question. Whether you agree with my answer or not, can you acknowledge that I have answered your question?

[Coolhand]

Who created the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil and placed it into the garden. Who also cast Satan onto the earth and did not prevent his perfect creation from being tempted by him. God had a whole Universe and many dimensions into which Satan could have been cast.

Who designed the human brain which comes out of the package badly restricted and full of ignorance.

The vast majority of we humans "sin" or err because we are ignorant and unaware of the purpose and will of God for our lives. I can't consider that "sin" myself. If one experiences deity personally and is aware and has knowledge of God's Will and then behaves contrarily, I could consider that sin. Notice I said "knowledge" of God's will and not "belief" of what God's will is according to somebody else or some book presumed to be Holy.

Everything is going exactly according to God's plans isn't it?

Well I guess it depends on how you understand the will of God. Starting in Genesis, it is "in your face" obvious that God requires everyman to make a choice. Your argument seems to be based on the conclusion that God (as the Bible describes Him) is at fault for not insulating mankind away from making a wrong choice. The first couple had the choice between the tree of life, and the tree of the knwoledge of good and evil.

Is it not obvious that part of the will of God is for mankind to choose his or her way?

[Fawzo]

Thanks RevRainbow.

You brought up some interesting points I never thought about before, like all those who had expired before Christ was born. It would seem to me as if they would have an advantageous position. How could anyone of them reject him?

[Bro. Hex]

Saying that someone forgot to pray (in my opinion) would be an understatement.

I would add praying and fasting is required,

but specifically praying in Jesus name...

.

Really?

That's what 6,000,000 Jews were supposed to do?

"Pray in Jesus' name"???

Are you SERIOUS???

And they died "because they didn't"???

That can't be right.

Oh, and I think that they "passed the fasting test",

what with being "slowly starved to death".

Edited June 26, 2010 by Hexalpa

[Coolhand]

You see God as a judge, and I don't see how it is possible to be agape love and judge anything. Agape love is acceptance, bearing all, enduring all and never failing me, no matter how far I dstance my own self from the love of God. It is not God that judges and condemns me, and sends me into oblivion, but myself that does so in ignorance and fear.

Coolhand who in their Omniscience gave the dominion and authority to those entities with foreknowledge of their evil ways????

It is interesting that you choose to characterize God's love as agape love; and you choose the highly "Christianized" version of agape love which is that of unconditional love. Agape is a Greek word. Ah'hava is the Hebrew word for which the Greek word agape is substituted. Ah'hava describes the deep, committed, and sacrificial love between a husband and a wife, not an unconditional love. Reading the Hebrew Scriptures you find out quickly that God's love is indeed conditional.

I would argue to you and others that you should evaluate whether you could be being led astray by a spirit that is other than God. And due to the subjective nature of your religious experience, you have nothing to measure against to see if you are being led astray or not; you only have a feeling and emotion.

I would also argue that the graveyards and prisons are full of people who have acted solely on feeling and emotion.

How would you answer those two arguments?

[Fawzo]

Well I guess it depends on how you understand the will of God. Starting in Genesis, it is "in your face" obvious that God requires everyman to make a choice. Your argument seems to be based on the conclusion that God (as the Bible describes Him) is at fault for not insulating mankind away from making a wrong choice. The first couple had the choice between the tree of life, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Is it not obvious that part of the will of God is for mankind to choose his or her way?

God would not only be at fault for not insulating, but for infecting a pristine system himself. Yes it seems that God's desire was for man to make choices and first God had to create an alternative choice before that could happen.

This anthropocentric outlook seems very arrogant and egoic to me. To think that the whole Universe exists just for we humans and the whole celestial spiritual realm fights over us and our salvation seems ridiculous to me.

Edited June 26, 2010 by Fawzo

[Fawzo]

It is interesting that you choose to characterize God's love as agape love; and you choose the highly "Christianized" version of agape love which is that of unconditional love. Agape is a Greek word. Ah'hava is the Hebrew word for which the Greek word agape is substituted. Ah'hava describes the deep, committed, and sacrificial love between a husband and a wife, not an unconditional love. Reading the Hebrew Scriptures you find out quickly that God's love is indeed conditional.

I would argue to you and others that you should evaluate whether you could be being led astray by a spirit that is other than God. And due to the subjective nature of your religious experience, you have nothing to measure against to see if you are being led astray or not; you only have a feeling and emotion.

I would also argue that the graveyards and prisons are full of people who have acted solely on feeling and emotion.

How would you answer those two arguments?

It is not only feelings and emotions which give me the conviction I have. The knowledge showed me that the Bible wasn't the inerrant word of God has been verified in more ways then I can count. I choose to characterize God's love as unconditional because that is what I experienced firsthand, when I stood in front of a presence I believed was the Divine.

Which does a wise man trust myth or experience? Especially experience that can be verified with data and what I believe is sound logic.

If I have been led astray by some entity, which I find no evidence for, then isn't it all a part of God's perfect plan, and I am still doing his will aren't I? Maybe I'm the modern version of Judas as portrayed in the Gospel of Judas.

My desire is one of pure service to God with an intent to spread compassion and tolerance for others among all peoples. If successful, that wouldn't serve Satan's goals all that well.

Edited June 27, 2010 by Fawzo