Liberal Christianity 2

[Dan56]

So your saying that the reason 6 million Jews were slaughtered by evil Nazi psychos were because they forgot to pray to God to ask him to stop it. Sorry Cool I just do not buy that. I am definitely sure the Jews prayed long and hard about the persecution they were receiving and it still did not stop so many of them dying in the death camps.

Is it God's fault if good allows evil to exist, or is it our fault? A predominately Christian nation (America) sat on their hands and watched the holocaust happen, so why blame God when we had the power to stop it? When we finally got off our butts, God was with us, our prayers were answered, and good triumphed over evil. If King David or Joshua refused to fight, would God had given them the victory? God hears prayers and will give us the victory, but I believe he expects us to make an effort to fight the good fight. If we our willingly lead as sheep to the slaughter, its not God's fault.

[Tsukino_Rei]

Is it God's fault if good allows evil to exist, or is it our fault? A predominately Christian nation (America) sat on their hands and watched the holocaust happen, so why blame God when we had the power to stop it? When we finally got off our butts, God was with us, our prayers were answered, and good triumphed over evil. If King David or Joshua refused to fight, would God had given them the victory? God hears prayers and will give us the victory, but I believe he expects us to make an effort to fight the good fight. If we our willingly lead as sheep to the slaughter, its not God's fault.

The same predominantly Christian nation (America) also experimented with radiation doses on hospitalized citizens without their knowledge, studied the progression of syphilis without treatment in their own citizens, and practiced forced eugenics. Among other things.

Germany was predominantly Christian too.

In fact, in some western nations poor moral character was concidered to be a genetic trait. So young women who became pregnant out of wedlock were a target for eugenics, right along with homosexuals.

Religion claimed support from science and together they set out to purge evil from humanity and in so doing commited some of the most evil acts of inhumanity.

What is the lesson here?

Certainly not that any single person or group of people should claim moral authority over others and then enforce that authority.

Edited June 27, 2010 by Tsukino_Rei

[Pete]

The short answer is that there is a strong demonic force behind Nazism whose sovereignty remained unchallenged which resulted in that tragedy.

Saying that someone forgot to pray (in my opinion) would be an understatement. I would add praying and fasting is required, but specifically praying in Jesus name and through His authority is the key.

Pete, you keep saying that I have not answered your question. Whether you agree with my answer or not, can you acknowledge that I have answered your question?

So your saying an all powerful God is a merciless tyrant who will not lift a finger to save men, women, and children going to the gas chambers in millions unless they use the name Jesus and fast. Hardly a God worth praying too is it? Sounds like a bureaucratic egomaniac insisting one must have the right paperwork or they will not get help to someone who is dying.

None of this however, answers the question about God. God knew what he created and knew what it would do and then moaned about it and blamed that which he created for the error.

All this points to me, is the biblical description of God is a bit like Mr Bean with attitude.

Edited June 27, 2010 by Pete

[Bro. Hex]

The false dichotomy that you are asserting is that hope and truth do not coexist.

Besides setting people free, the truth also gives hope.

Apparently the truth did not give YOU hope, as

I offered you the truth,

which (apparently) you did not like, as you replied:

"What hope am I supposed to gain from that?"

(Am I the one who is supposed to show you how to find hope in the face of truth?)

Do you want me to hold your hand and tell you fairy tales?

I offered you truth, and you asked me for hope.

Which one of us has a problem seeing hope?

Which one of us has created a dichotomy?

Edited June 27, 2010 by Hexalpa

[Fawzo]

Like what?

Contradictions, verifiable false testimony, a description of a cosmology that is most likely the conjecture of stone age men sitting around a good fire, mythological stories like Adam and Eve, Noah, Job and the whole precept that an Omniscient deity has to kill and sacrifice a portion of himself, to himself, for circustances that he himself allows and is complicit for.

Also that most of these stories are most likely the result of influence from writings of the Mesopatamian area such as the Enuma Elish, Gilgamesh Epic, Instructions of Šuruppak amd a host of others that parralel stories such as Job, Ecclesiastes, Garden of Eden, Noah, Nimrod, etc, etc. and all which predate the Biblical versions.

[Fawzo]

Coincidentally, I see your position as anthropocentric in that the focus is on man and not on God. It is God that equips us to make the right choices and actually fights for us when we submit to Him. To assume we can do it without God or on our own is just pending disaster.

The story starts off with evil already in existence. We do not have the answer to why it is there or why is allowed to exist. That question is almost irrelevant though being that God has made a way for us to overcome evil and all we have to do is go along with His program. He makes it real simple.

My focus is on beingness and harmony and having all beings resonate within the love of God removing the distinctions that appear to separate us. One of those being the idea that anyones belief system is the only true belief system and that it is ok to judge, demonize, mistreat and kill others who don't capitulate to it.

[Fawzo]

Or is there no lake of fire?

Coolhand maybe the lake of fire is a metaphor which represents the gulf which separates us when we are swimming within the burning desires of the ego.

[Fawzo]

Okay, you have now answered MY questions.

If I understand you correctly, you have answered thusly:

6,000,000 Jews died in the Holocaust "because they didn't pray to Jesus"

From my POV, you have just described an utterly despicable God;

a God thoroughly unworthy of either love or respect.

I'd sooner have a Golden Calf.

Now I will answer your question:

You said:

"It appears to me that only Jesus has given us the authority to carry out this battle,

and only through His name are we supposed to do battle.

Am I correct? "

No, you are not correct.

And the error is multifaceted:

(1) You do not need any external authority to strive against evil in this world.

(I assume that striving against evil is what you mean by "doing battle".

I find the "military rendering" a bit over-the-top and distorting of reality, but I think I get your general gist).

(2)If you were in need of external "Authority" (which you aren't) Jesus could not provide it.

God could, but Jesus could not.

(3)"Doing battle" in the name of God is what the Crusades were all about.

Killing people in the name of God. Is was an evil undertaking of plunder and territorial expansion,

and it was dressed up in holiness...which made it all the more evil.

(4)In the frame of reference that you suggest, "we" (the human race) is "at war"

with an invisible army of Evil Beings. This is nonsense. It borders on delusional.

And yes, I know that lots of people believe it to be true. That doesn't make it so.

There certainly IS evil in this world. Evil deeds are performed every day...by people just like us.

It may make people feel better to believe that Evil is "out there",

a being separate from ourselves.

But evil lies "within us"...just like goodness.

Good and evil are alive and well in our individual psyches.

In some of us one or the other tends to dominate.

But most of the time we are all a mixture of both.

WE are the Bogeyman.

WE are "the devil".

And we are the agents of Goodness in this world.

That is how God works...through us.

It may make you "feel good" to talk disparagingly about Liberal Christianity.

But I really think it only works to demonstrate otherwise.

One more thing: There IS no "lake of fire".

I agree completely.

My ego is bad enough to wrestle against and it wins more often than not in hand to hand combat. I wouldn't stand a chance even yelling out every name that God and Jesus is known by in every language on the planet against invisible horned creatures.

If it worked and evil perished why is there still crime and Christians speeding and being gluttonous on Sabbath lol

Edited June 27, 2010 by Fawzo

[Coolhand]

So your saying an all powerful God is a merciless tyrant who will not lift a finger to save men, women, and children going to the gas chambers in millions unless they use the name Jesus and fast. Hardly a God worth praying too is it? Sounds like a bureaucratic egomaniac insisting one must have the right paperwork or they will not get help to someone who is dying.

None of this however, answers the question about God. God knew what he created and knew what it would do and then moaned about it and blamed that which he created for the error.

All this points to me, is the biblical description of God is a bit like Mr Bean with attitude.

I am saying that you, we, they, all of us have access to the resurrection power of Jesus Christ through a personal relationship with Him. For over 2,000 years this has been available, been made plain, and known throughout the world, especially known in the western world. God chose Jesus to be the link between Himself and man and proved it by raising from the dead; an event which was adequately documented.

If you or anybody decides to live your life apart from having a relationship with Jesus Christ you cannot blame God for the tragedies that result. It has been my experience and I have witnessed this through many others as well, that the Bible is accurate and is the only tool that exists to assists us in drawing close to God, gain victory over the enemy, and it works.

I understand that you refuse to come to the plate on this issue of sovereignty and purpose in regard to God’s action or lack thereof, but in doing so you are rejecting the piece you need to actually understand what you are talking about. This is not a philosophical argument, this is a spiritual war, plain and simple.

I have adequately explained this to you Pete, now it is your turn. You explain to me what happened to the 6 million Jews. How did it happen, and why didn't the liberal Christian God stop it? What explanation according to liberal Christianity is there for this tragedy?

[Coolhand]

Apparently the truth did not give YOU hope, as

I offered you the truth,

which (apparently) you did not like, as you replied:

"What hope am I supposed to gain from that?"

(Am I the one who is supposed to show you how to find hope in the face of truth?)

Do you want me to hold your hand and tell you fairy tales?

I offered you truth, and you asked me for hope.

Which one of us has a problem seeing hope?

Which one of us has created a dichotomy?

Let me remind you of what your response was:

What would make it "go away"?

WE are still here, so evil is still here.

and goodness is still here.

When man is gone evil will cease.

Evil is a necessary possibility so long as there is free will.

Because we ARE NOT good, well-intentioned human beings.

We prefer to think we are "good people"...but we are both good and bad...inside.

Absolutely!

We ARE flawed.

We are what we are.

Summary: people are good and evil, there is no overcoming the evil, and that is just how it is.

Not only is there no hope in that, but it is not true! We can overcome evil in our personal lives, and nationally, but it has to be done through Jesus Christ. Liberal Christianity may not provide the means of overcoming evil, but there is the promise and hope of overcoming evil through biblical Christianity.

You can gain hope that the work that Jesus began in you when you became spiritually awakened, that He will continue to work until He comes back for you.

You can gain hope through that knowledge that Jesus has overcome evil and will lead you and guide you regarding you can also.

You can gain hope that by praying in the name and authority of Jesus Christ that by Him answering your prayers God the father is glorified.

You can gain hope that by the repentance and by forsaking the sin an evil in your life you can walk in purity before God with a clear conscience.

I do have someone holding my hand on this, by the way, and I feel He is better equipped than you are.

[Coolhand]

Contradictions, verifiable false testimony, a description of a cosmology that is most likely the conjecture of stone age men sitting around a good fire, mythological stories like Adam and Eve, Noah, Job and the whole precept that an Omniscient deity has to kill and sacrifice a portion of himself, to himself, for circustances that he himself allows and is complicit for.

Also that most of these stories are most likely the result of influence from writings of the Mesopatamian area such as the Enuma Elish, Gilgamesh Epic, Instructions of Šuruppak amd a host of others that parralel stories such as Job, Ecclesiastes, Garden of Eden, Noah, Nimrod, etc, etc. and all which predate the Biblical versions.

That is not proof of anything. All these things point to is that most likely mankind had its start from from one goup of people in one specific geographical location and spread out frome there, each retaining parts of the well known narratives that were passed down to them, and replacing the parts of the narrative (or leaving them out) that the did not like.

My focus is on beingness and harmony and having all beings resonate within the love of God removing the distinctions that appear to separate us. One of those being the idea that anyones belief system is the only true belief system and that it is ok to judge, demonize, mistreat and kill others who don't capitulate to it.

If that is true then why do you judge, demonize, and mistreat biblical Christians and biblical Christianity? Is there some sort of double standard in your theology that allows or requires that to bring this beingness and harmony?

Coolhand maybe the lake of fire is a metaphor which represents the gulf which separates us when we are swimming within the burning desires of the ego.

Why would you make that assumption? Is there something in that narrative that would lead you to that conclusion?

I do not see any reason to take that as a metaphor, other than it is an extremely uncomfortable image to consider. But textually, that is not a reason.

[Pete]

I am saying that you, we, they, all of us have access to the resurrection power of Jesus Christ through a personal relationship with Him. For over 2,000 years this has been available, been made plain, and known throughout the world, especially known in the western world. God chose Jesus to be the link between Himself and man and proved it by raising from the dead; an event which was adequately documented.

If you or anybody decides to live your life apart from having a relationship with Jesus Christ you cannot blame God for the tragedies that result. It has been my experience and I have witnessed this through many others as well, that the Bible is accurate and is the only tool that exists to assists us in drawing close to God, gain victory over the enemy, and it works.

I understand that you refuse to come to the plate on this issue of sovereignty and purpose in regard to God's action or lack thereof, but in doing so you are rejecting the piece you need to actually understand what you are talking about. This is not a philosophical argument, this is a spiritual war, plain and simple.

I have adequately explained this to you Pete, now it is your turn. You explain to me what happened to the 6 million Jews. How did it happen, and why didn't the liberal Christian God stop it? What explanation according to liberal Christianity is there for this tragedy?

You have explained your opinion and lectured me but like I have say before it makes only sense to you.

Firstly, God, if all powerful, could have created what he wanted in the first place and prevented evil from existing right form the beginning but neglected to to so. It is not an argument (IMO) to just say good has allowed evil to exist to give us a choice because it seems God did not want us to avail ourselves of that choice and how is it good to allow evil when it is in your power to stop it and not create it in the first place.

Secondly, You may say you believe the bible to be inerrant but so far you have failed to supply a convincing argument that it is.

You say you have explained adequately but your the only one convinced of that. I feel you just lectured me with opinion and without evidence or convincing argument. I do not believe that is adequate..

[Bro. Hex]

Let me remind you of what your response was:

Summary: people are good and evil, there is no overcoming the evil, and that is just how it is.

Not only is there no hope in that, but it is not true! We can overcome evil in our personal lives, and nationally, but it has to be done through Jesus Christ. Liberal Christianity may not provide the means of overcoming evil, but there is the promise and hope of overcoming evil through biblical Christianity.

You can gain hope that the work that Jesus began in you when you became spiritually awakened, that He will continue to work until He comes back for you.

You can gain hope through that knowledge that Jesus has overcome evil and will lead you and guide you regarding you can also.

You can gain hope that by praying in the name and authority of Jesus Christ that by Him answering your prayers God the father is glorified.

You can gain hope that by the repentance and by forsaking the sin an evil in your life you can walk in purity before God with a clear conscience.

I do have someone holding my hand on this, by the way, and I feel He is better equipped than you are.

Nice verbage.

Always useful when one wants to "change the subject"

Now, let ME remind YOU.

You didn't answer the question.

(BTW I don't have any trouble remembering what I said...

and what I DIDN'T say; Like: "there is no overcoming evil")

Edited June 27, 2010 by Hexalpa

[Fawzo]

That is not proof of anything. All these things point to is that most likely mankind had its start from from one goup of people in one specific geographical location and spread out from there, each retaining parts of the well known narratives that were passed down to them, and replacing the parts of the narrative (or leaving them out) that the did not like.

Might also be a circumstance of a people without any culture that had to borrow and rework stories from their neighbors. If as some archaeologist suggest and the Israelites were just a collection of misplaced Canaanites then that would make sense. In either case the likely hood that such stories are the word of God are very remote.

If that is true then why do you judge, demonize, and mistreat biblical Christians and biblical Christianity? Is there some sort of double standard in your theology that allows or requires that to bring this beingness and harmony?

Where have I ever demonized and mistreated Christians here. I have pointed out inconsistencies and portions of their belief system which seems very foolish to me and others. Just because someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't make it an attack.

And I would never be so arrogant and as bold to make the statements you make such as:

" It has been my experience and I have witnessed this through many others as well, that the Bible is accurate and is the only tool that exists to assists us in drawing close to God, gain victory over the enemy, and it works."

Why would you make that assumption? Is there something in that narrative that would lead you to that conclusion?

Not in the narrative, but the concept itself taken literally. For Hell to exist as an actual place then that means that God fails and he had to create a place to take care of his failures. According to Christian scripture his ability to convey his awesome capabilities and have them worshiped by the masses is minimal. The road to such awareness is narrow and the path to Hell is massive. God utterly fails. It seems he didn't learn anything from 1/3 of the Angels turning on him and His next attempt at attaining adoration and worship from His creations has gotten exponentially worse. God creates defective junk with fatal inherent flaws according to the Bible. Where is there any Omniscience in that?

I do not see any reason to take that as a metaphor, other than it is an extremely uncomfortable image to consider. But textually, that is not a reason.

Yes an eternity of punishment for a finite crime is perfect justice for eating bacon or saying God Damn it!

[Pete]

Let me remind you of what your response was:

Summary: people are good and evil, there is no overcoming the evil, and that is just how it is.

Not only is there no hope in that, but it is not true! We can overcome evil in our personal lives, and nationally, but it has to be done through Jesus Christ. Liberal Christianity may not provide the means of overcoming evil, but there is the promise and hope of overcoming evil through biblical Christianity.

You can gain hope that the work that Jesus began in you when you became spiritually awakened, that He will continue to work until He comes back for you.

You can gain hope through that knowledge that Jesus has overcome evil and will lead you and guide you regarding you can also.

You can gain hope that by praying in the name and authority of Jesus Christ that by Him answering your prayers God the father is glorified.

You can gain hope that by the repentance and by forsaking the sin an evil in your life you can walk in purity before God with a clear conscience.

I do have someone holding my hand on this, by the way, and I feel He is better equipped than you are.

You know something Cool. I have nursed the sick most of my life and in my experience there is no better out come from those who had faith and those who did not. Lets also talk about glory with something real that I have witnessed. My parents have prayed to Jesus and in Jesus' name and worshiped God all their lives. My father has recently had a stroke and does not know where he is or remember my mothers name despite seeing her. My mother has fibrosis of the lungs that will eventually kill her but meanwhile she is being dogged by cancer. So now, you tell me that all will be well if we pray through Jesus' name and there is hope, but hell mate, I have to say I do not feel it at present. Do I feel like glorifying the biblical god and believing all is okay in Jesus' name? Put yourself in my place and tell me you would feel hope and lets not forget the churches that prayed over me to heal my disability and blamed my parents for not having enough faith when I was not healed.

Well you want it real and real you have got it.

All I hear is rhetoric but unfortunately Cool, in the real world rhetoric does not answer questions.

[RevRainbow]

If love is not unconditional, then, IMO, it is not love but possessiveness (lust) and manipulation. Because I love you does not mean that I cannot rebuke you or, if you are my child punish you after fair warning.

Unconditional love does not imply a lack or absence of discipline.

[Coolhand]

You have explained your opinion and lectured me but like I have say before it makes only sense to you.

Firstly, God, if all powerful, could have created what he wanted in the first place and prevented evil from existing right form the beginning but neglected to to so. It is not an argument (IMO) to just say good has allowed evil to exist to give us a choice because it seems God did not want us to avail ourselves of that choice and how is it good to allow evil when it is in your power to stop it and not create it in the first place.

I do not believe that it was God's purpose to prevent evil from existing. No where in Scripture would you get that idea. It is clear through Scripture that God desires to spend eternity which those who are skilled at diserning and overcoming evil by relying on Him. This makes the whole argument based on the failed omniscient God an irrelevant point.

Secondly, You may say you believe the bible to be inerrant but so far you have failed to supply a convincing argument that it is.

You say you have explained adequately but your the only one convinced of that. I feel you just lectured me with opinion and without evidence or convincing argument. I do not believe that is adequate..

I don't think I have said anything about the Bible being inerrant. You seem to keep bringing it up.

[Coolhand]

Nice verbage.

Always useful when one wants to "change the subject"

Now, let ME remind YOU.

You didn't answer the question.

(BTW I don't have any trouble remembering what I said...

and what I DIDN'T say; Like: "there is no overcoming evil")

I'm not sure which question you are refering to, which I assumed were rhetorical:

(Am I the one who is supposed to show you how to find hope in the face of truth?)

Sure, what do you have? I asked that because I failed see any hope in your analysis. I have hope, as I have already explained. The reason I asked that is to see what hope you see in your conclusion to try and understand your position better.

Do you want me to hold your hand and tell you fairy tales?

I pretty much ignore comments like this.

Which one of us has created a dichotomy?

I'm not sure, I was thinking it was you. Obviously you disagree, so mabe you could clear it up by explaining what hope you find in the truth you claim to be the truth.

[Coolhand]

You know something Cool. I have nursed the sick most of my life and in my experience there is no better out come from those who had faith and those who did not. Lets also talk about glory with something real that I have witnessed. My parents have prayed to Jesus and in Jesus' name and worshiped God all their lives. My father has recently had a stroke and does not know where he is or remember my mothers name despite seeing her. My mother has fibrosis of the lungs that will eventually kill her but meanwhile she is being dogged by cancer. So now, you tell me that all will be well if we pray through Jesus' name and there is hope, but hell mate, I have to say I do not feel it at present. Do I feel like glorifying the biblical god and believing all is okay in Jesus' name? Put yourself in my place and tell me you would feel hope and lets not forget the churches that prayed over me to heal my disability and blamed my parents for not having enough faith when I was not healed.

Well you want it real and real you have got it.

All I hear is rhetoric but unfortunately Cool, in the real world rhetoric does not answer questions.

I think we should pray and fast for you and your parents. I think it is major wrong to accuse anyone of a lack of faith when they do not see the manifestaion of a healing that is being prayed for. You are not the problem and I would disagree with anyone that would tell you are. We should pray and not give up. I am up for it.

The way I see it is that you are part of my family Pete, and these are attacks on you and your family.

God had promised that He is our healer.

[Bro. Hex]

I'm not sure which question you are refering to, which I assumed were rhetorical:

(Am I the one who is supposed to show you how to find hope in the face of truth?)

Sure, what do you have? I asked that because I failed see any hope in your analysis. I have hope, as I have already explained. The reason I asked that is to see what hope you see in your conclusion to try and understand your position better.

Actually this particular question WAS rhetorical...

(The only question I wanted answered was "which of us created a dichotomy?")

Perhaps I should have shown more stress on the word: "supposed".

Let me put it otherwise:

Why should I be obliged to supply you with hope?

That is not my responsibility.

You should not expect to find hope when you first confront a truth.

You should be troubled by it:

Jesus said,

1 "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find.

2 When they find, they will be disturbed.

3 When they are disturbed, they will marvel,

4 and will rule over all."

Logion 2, Gospel of Thomas

No one can supply hope to another.

You can be the reason, you can become the catalyst

for someone else to "build hope" out of their own

emotional, intellectual and spiritual resources.

But you cannot provide hope to another.

So, I'm sorry, but I can't give it to you.

I am not sure that I can even begin to explain to you (or to anyone)

how it is that knowing that good and evil are inside of us all,

that there is no safe place where one can hide from evil,

why knowing this doesn't bother me...but it doesn't.

What I know is that each of us has to "construct his own bravery",

each of us has to "create his own hopeful vision",

in the face of "whatever truths" he encounter in life.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Hexalpa