To Be A Christian Or Not To Be A Christian

[Cornelius]

Hmm....You know Coolhand, while I appreciate your take on all this, all I can say is SOMETIMES, just SOMETIMES people out grow Christianity.

I think a lot of it has to do with contraditictions built into the Bible it's self. You speak of him getting "just with Jesus"..Have you thought he MAY have allready done that and Jesus more or less said that parts of the Bible really don't reflect what he thought?

The fact is the Bible has been redacted, as can be seen through the Old Testament as well. I have had people say that to me, that I just need to ask God with a sincere heart and that God will reveal that what they are saying is true. The funny thing is, when I DO ask God (a.k.a The Force), more often then not the impression I get is that God agrees with me STILL!

So what if he does as you say, Coolhand, and after reading the Bible and talking to Jesus, Jesus says "You know Blackthorn, many people have seriously misquoted me and put words in My mouth. Here's the real deal son; I inspired ALL these books, but because I am God, and you are just a puny human with a puny human brain, NONE of you have it totally right and that includes you, Coolhand AND Lord Occultis. I gave you a mind to understand, a heart to feel and logic to question. I never intended for ANYONE to uncritically take My words without thinking it through. It's no mistake there are so many religions here, BlackThorn: That was by MY DESIGN. I intended to use them to help you eventually reach a day when you and I can relate on a more personal level, one on one, where you won't NEED any holy book because we will talk face to face. Untill that day comes, please take it all with a grain of salt, and most of all, trust the mind I gave you to think and the heart I gave you to feel"?

You assume, as those who tell me to ask God, that Jesus or God or whatever you trerm the Divine will answer them in the way you see it, and that if God dosen't their misled. Can't God, being the Divine Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent One do as He pleases? If God wants BlackThorn to believe as you do, it seems to me that God can make it PERFECTLY CLEAR to BlackThorn that what you say is indeed the 100%, unvarnished Truth (with a capital T).

Fact is, even your own Church disagrees with you, Coolhand. Now, are they right or are you right? If their right, then why resist "the Truth". However, if you are right, then why do they (who seem to be sincere, honest people) disagree with you? Could it be your BOTH RIGHT? Could it be that NEITHER of you are wrong, but that in one of those classical pardoxes it's Both/And not Either/Or?

In the end, speaking now from my religious perspective, The Force is too great, transcendent and wonderful for us puny humans to even CLAIM we totally understand it. A person could spend a billion lifetimes contemplating The Force, and even THAT would not be enough! In the end, The Force is ineffieable. I take your meaning of "God" to be synonymous with The Force. Can you claim to know the mind of God, Coolhand? Does God call on you when he needs to make a decision? Are you God's counselor? Of course not!

I appreciate the sentiment LO. However Cool is just trying to help an old friend(me ) out. This is something that should be encouraged and not discouraged.

I respect BlackThorn and wish him well on his voyage of discovery.

Thank you.

Cool my brother. I have to get ready for work right now and I will answer your post later when I have more time to give it the consideration it deserves. Thank you for your concern and it's good to see you again.

[RevRainbow]

Holy Harleys, Coolhand, are you stirrin' up the local church down thar agin?

[Coolhand]

Holy Harleys, Coolhand, are you stirrin' up the local church down thar agin?

Yeah....lol.

[RobinD69]

I must agree with Coolhand, I trully respect Blackthorn because he has reached out to me and basically told me the same thing that Coolhand has told him. I would like to recommend a book to my friend Blackthorn that could be lots of help;

"The Words of Jesus" By Hunter Lewis, 1998.

This book has been very helpful to me when I feel overwelmed by personal opinions of what Christ said and didnt say.

Vic you know as well as I do that we must leave the flesh out of our journey and just seek Christ.

As I said before, I will keep you in my prayers and I thank you for your kind words when I needed understanding.

You brought up the topic of Homosexuality and you know my view on the subject is strictly Biblical, so seek the words of Christ on this subject it will be enlightening.

[mererdog]

What does this change mean in terms of how you plan to live your life?

[Cornelius]

Hey Vic,

It may be none of my business, but I have recently, again, become a black sheep in my denomination (however I'm sure this time IS the last) and I think I can relate to some of your thoughts. I hear continually, "Christians should not go (fill in the blank), Christians should this or that."

Been riling them up again have you luke. I think your just a little too open minded sometimes for some people (It's been so long I almost forgot my former handle lol)

If I were you what I would do is remember what it was like when you first came to Christ and relive that. There was a reason you came to him, and there were things you knew as a result of that. Here's a simple thing; people are the problem; get them out of the equasion. Dogma can be help but it can be a hindrance as well; just drop all of it.

That is exactly what I have done. Jesus has shown me the Father/Creator and how to live a good life full of God's light and love. I do not need to be a "christian" to do so. I just need to love God and let him guide me. Jesus didn't teach christianity Jesus taught about God.

"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"

And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.

This is the great and first commandment.

And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."

This is what I have decided to do.

Lately the only Bible I study is Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, and Revelation; sometimes James, Jude, Hebrews, 1 and 2 Peter; in that order. The reason for that is the gospels and acts are pure gospel. Jesus did not get caught up in all the cultural issues of his day. Our churches teach gospel with the addition of the cultural likes and dislike of the pastor and the congregation and they respond to cultural tensions.

I still study the Gospels. I study Apocrypha too. I recommend checking out the Book of Enoch luke you would like it. I also have been studying the Bhagavad Gita and the Tao te Ching. After I am content with those I plan to study the teachings of Buddha again for a spell and maybe some more hindu stuff. However don't think because I study other things I am discarding the teachings of Jesus or that I am not still his disciple. One does not need to be a bible believing christian to be so.

Get back to just Vic and Jesus.

That is exactly where I am at. Well I would say that I have gotten back to just Vic and God. But do not think that I am leaving Jesus behind. Far from it.

We all wind up where we do however we get there. I have been spending time in the Zoroastrian scriptures, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, and several others and are comparative likenesses, but the contrasts are the things that concern me.

This doesn't suprise me you have always been well read and inquisitive. It is one of the things I have always admired about you. I've know quite a few christians who would never do such a thing for fear it would "lead them astray"

None are a simple as the words of Jesus: "only believe," "all things are possible to him who believes," "he who believes will do the works I do and greater than these," the commands to heal the sick, raise the dead, make disciples; I have found this (the words of Jesus) to be the real deal and all else pales in comparison, in fact there is nothing to compare them to.

It is one of those things that you cannot compare for it holds its own truth. It does not mean it is the only truth brother.

The problem is luke that you (and also robin) seem to be under the impression that unless I believe exactly as you do then I am and will be wrong. This simply is not true. Fear not for when the time comes for us to leave this place I am sure we will meet again. whether or not I am a "christian"

This is another cultural issue that is causing division; both sides are harming and causing harm to the other and I think the sooner we can be finished with it the better. In fact, I won't even go there with anyone anymore.

I agree. I am glad you no longer argue it. However this is not the "deciding factor" as it were in my spiritual evolution merely an example I gave.

The deconstructionism surrounding the demythologizing of Jesus was a cultural issue brought on by modernity and is not going to help you believe what Jesus said; in fact it will create a major hindrance to that. Jesus is the real deal and I think you know that; let him be Jesus.

I have done just that. I am letting Jesus simply be Jesus and I am following and giving myself over to the Almighty. It is the mythologizing of Jesus that was the hindrance.

I like the ULC as well, but if your intent is to be a disciple of Jesus, you are probably going to have to go outside the ULC group to get what you need.

Not at all my brother. Been there done that so to speak. This is where I plan to stay

As far as deism goes, I don't think you are going to find what you are looking for there, being that you know Christ you have a huge measuring stick now. I do not have any cute sayings or mystical jive to tell you other than draw closer to Christ. Sit in his presence first thing in the morning or whenever you can get some quiet time for a half hour or so and dump these concerns on him and then just listen. He speaks, as you know right into your spirit and soul. Shut it all off and seek him.

This is exactly what I have been doing. Now I am heading on the path that God has shown me. I have let go of the baggage of christianity and I am now in his hands. I am not looking for anything in deism. I am simply a Deist. I am one with the Creator and I don't need any book to tell me what he has already said himself. Look around you luke and know that God is All and that he is Love.

Pray for me as I will be praying for you.

Always brother and I thank you for your prayers

[Cornelius]

I must agree with Coolhand, I trully respect Blackthorn because he has reached out to me and basically told me the same thing that Coolhand has told him.

Thank you Robin. As you know I am just a pm away

I would like to recommend a book to my friend Blackthorn that could be lots of help;

"The Words of Jesus" By Hunter Lewis, 1998.

This book has been very helpful to me when I feel overwelmed by personal opinions of what Christ said and didnt say.

Thank you my friend but I don't need hunter Lewis to tell me what he thinks Jesus said. Thank you for the suggestion though I do appreciate it.

Vic you know as well as I do that we must leave the flesh out of our journey and just seek Christ.

this is not a matter of the flesh and I seek noone because god is with me as he is with you brother

As I said before, I will keep you in my prayers and I thank you for your kind words when I needed understanding.

Thank you. i will return the favor because I think we all need some prayers now and again. It was no problem Robin glad I could help.

You brought up the topic of Homosexuality and you know my view on the subject is strictly Biblical, so seek the words of Christ on this subject it will be enlightening.

I have and here is a sample of what I found.

And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire.

So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

On the subject of homosexuality Jesus seems to be silent. I guess he figured he had already covered it elsewhere.

However i don't want to turn this into a debate about such as i have seen enough of those over the years. and it is off topic as it was merely one example of many possible ones that I gave.

What does this change mean in terms of how you plan to live your life?

The destination has not changed merely the route.

Good question though doggie.

[Coolhand]

Hey Vic,

I'm encouraged by your words.

I have Enoch, I regularly use the apaocrypha and my other books to better understand what Jesus was talking about. Paul as well and the rest of the New Testament writers quote many books that my denomination has a huge problem with. When Jesus said " O Jerusalem Jerusalem I wanted to gather you under my wings as a hen gathers her chick but you would not," he was quoting 2 Esdras chapter one. Now (lol) can you guess what the reaction was when I made that statement from the pulpit (lol)? I have a book called the "Portable Bible of the World" from Viking publishing and it has the "best of" of all the different major world scriptures. But I am a bit disatisfied with it because the things that Jesus said that I find most important are not in it; so I must assume the same for the rest of the scriptures; but it is ok.

I like your approach; don't feel like you have to do anything the way I do or they way I suggest; I know you don't feel that way, but I just want you to know my heart. I appreciate your prayers and need all I can get.

[RevRainbow]

This thread has been most edifying to me (and I hope to others as well).

"Jesus has shown me the Father/Creator and how to live a good life full of God's light and love. I do not need to be a "christian" to do so. I just need to love God and let him guide me. Jesus didn't teach christianity Jesus taught about God." -Blackthorn

This is a most profound revelation and true statement, my friend.

[Coolhand]

By the way:

http://us.penguingroup.com/nf/Book/BookDis...d_Bible_Various

I'm looking for the original that has all of the texts in thier complete form but, translated into English.

Edited October 29, 2008 by Coolhand

[RobinD69]

I have and here is a sample of what I found.

And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire.

So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

On the subject of homosexuality Jesus seems to be silent. I guess he figured he had already covered it elsewhere.

However i don't want to turn this into a debate about such as i have seen enough of those over the years. and it is off topic as it was merely one example of many possible ones that I gave.

I apologize if you thought I was seeking debate even on a minimal scale. I have been misunderstood quite a bit around here, many think that I hate the homosexuals even though I have stated otherwise on numerous ocassions. I do love them as myself and I would hope that if I was rejecting God thru my actions someone would point it out to me instead of justifying my sin. So please do not misunderstand, I do not seek debate.

[mererdog]

The destination has not changed merely the route.

Good question though doggie.

I don't understand the answer.

[Himitsuko]

I wish you love and light on your ever evolving journey. A personal relationship with the Divine, no matter how you understand it, is the greatest gift a man can have.

Namaste.

[Cornelius]

Hey Vic,

I'm encouraged by your words.

I'm glad and I knew you'd understand.

I have Enoch, I regularly use the apaocrypha and my other books to better understand what Jesus was talking about. Paul as well and the rest of the New Testament writers quote many books that my denomination has a huge problem with. When Jesus said " O Jerusalem Jerusalem I wanted to gather you under my wings as a hen gathers her chick but you would not," he was quoting 2 Esdras chapter one. Now (lol) can you guess what the reaction was when I made that statement from the pulpit (lol)? I have a book called the "Portable Bible of the World" from Viking publishing and it has the "best of" of all the different major world scriptures. But I am a bit disatisfied with it because the things that Jesus said that I find most important are not in it; so I must assume the same for the rest of the scriptures; but it is ok.

lol. Must have been hilariously awkward. I'll have to check it out.

I like your approach; don't feel like you have to do anything the way I do or they way I suggest; I know you don't feel that way, but I just want you to know my heart. I appreciate your prayers and need all I can get.

Thanks brother. I'm glad you approve.

I don't understand the answer.

Think about it

This thread has been most edifying to me (and I hope to others as well).

"Jesus has shown me the Father/Creator and how to live a good life full of God's light and love. I do not need to be a "christian" to do so. I just need to love God and let him guide me. Jesus didn't teach christianity Jesus taught about God." -Blackthorn

This is a most profound revelation and true statement, my friend.

Your welcome and thank you rev.

You too himitsuko.

I apologize if you thought I was seeking debate even on a minimal scale. I have been misunderstood quite a bit around here, many think that I hate the homosexuals even though I have stated otherwise on numerous ocassions. I do love them as myself and I would hope that if I was rejecting God thru my actions someone would point it out to me instead of justifying my sin. So please do not misunderstand, I do not seek debate.

No need to apologize I did not think you were looking for a debate merely trying to avoid this thread being taken over by one. It was not you specifically I had in mind when I said that.

[RevRainbow]

Blackthorn,

Methinks in trying to label "what you are," in regards to belief, the term deist falls short. I think you have reached the point where you have unencumbered yourself with corporate religion and therefore should simply refer to yourself as a son of God (a child of God, to me, denotes a degree of spiritual immaturity - although we should always be dependent upon Him).

You have decided, as I understand it, to continue in the teachings of Jesus as pertains to the Father, for He has shown us the Father. If therefore, you, "son of man" now join with your heavenly Father as one, are you not then now adopted as His son, as He promises (He who comes to Me I will in no way, cast out")?

Not everyone can receive this information and understand it. We are sons/daughters of Man, of the earth, under the flesh. To us, Jesus has not only shown us, but given us, the Way to become son/daughters of God. What a mystery! Marvelous! "..that we should be called sons and daughters of the Most High God and "joint heirs with Christ!"

Abide in His love, my friend, and He shall work wonders in you. And, even if you forsake Him, He cannot, by His own word, leave you or forsake you. Such is His love for you and He will bless you with that same love to share with all others where, in the Spirit, "there is neither Jew nor Greek, male or female,"... only one with the Father. As Jesus said, "If you had known me, you would have known My Father...I and My Father are One"

When we humble ourselves before the Almighty "I AM" casting all else aside to truly seek and know Him, He lifts us up and cradles us in His Love and nothing can ever pluck us from His hands. Nothing.

Hmm, as a matter of fact, I too shall no longer refer to myself as a Christian for the sake of Man. No, I am, and have been and always will be (thank you, Jesus), a Son of the One True God. Amen!

Peace.

Edited October 30, 2008 by RevRainbow

[mererdog]

Think about it

I have. Had you said that the destination had changed but the route was different, I would take that to mean that you plan on living your life the same way you always have, and have simply come to expect to achieve a different goal by doing so. As is, you seem to be saying that you plan on changing how you live your life. Since I asked how you plan to change your life, it is as if I asked you how many apples you have and you answered "I do not have grapes. I have apples." Was it a deliberate non-answer to the question asked? I mean, it's cool if it is, I just feel like we got our wires crossed somewhere....

[RobinD69]

Blackthorn,

Methinks in trying to label "what you are," in regards to belief, the term deist falls short. I think you have reached the point where you have unencumbered yourself with corporate religion and therefore should simply refer to yourself as a son of God (a child of God, to me, denotes a degree of spiritual immaturity - although we should always be dependent upon Him).

You have decided, as I understand it, to continue in the teachings of Jesus as pertains to the Father, for He has shown us the Father. If therefore, you, "son of man" now join with your heavenly Father as one, are you not then now adopted as His son, as He promises (He who comes to Me I will in no way, cast out")?

Not everyone can receive this information and understand it. We are sons/daughters of Man, of the earth, under the flesh. To us, Jesus has not only shown us, but given us, the Way to become son/daughters of God. What a mystery! Marvelous! "..that we should be called sons and daughters of the Most High God and "joint heirs with Christ!"

Abide in His love, my friend, and He shall work wonders in you. And, even if you forsake Him, He cannot, by His own word, leave you or forsake you. Such is His love for you and He will bless you with that same love to share with all others where, in the Spirit, "there is neither Jew nor Greek, male or female,"... only one with the Father. As Jesus said, "If you had known me, you would have known My Father...I and My Father are One"

When we humble ourselves before the Almighty "I AM" casting all else aside to truly seek and know Him, He lifts us up and cradles us in His Love and nothing can ever pluck us from His hands. Nothing.

Hmm, as a matter of fact, I too shall no longer refer to myself as a Christian for the sake of Man. No, I am, and have been and always will be (thank you, Jesus), a Son of the One True God. Amen!

Peace.

Good one Rev R.

[Cornelius]

I have. Had you said that the destination had changed but the route was different, I would take that to mean that you plan on living your life the same way you always have, and have simply come to expect to achieve a different goal by doing so. As is, you seem to be saying that you plan on changing how you live your life. Since I asked how you plan to change your life, it is as if I asked you how many apples you have and you answered "I do not have grapes. I have apples." Was it a deliberate non-answer to the question asked? I mean, it's cool if it is, I just feel like we got our wires crossed somewhere....

The goal is the same and I don't plan on changing how I live my life as I am on a very good track right now. I have no need to change course right now. In the future I might have too but I will take that as it comes and when it is needed. How I view my life however has significantly changed now and over the years. It is continuing to change but I still want the same destination so to speak. I hope that clears that up for you. I left my answer a little vague to see what you would take from it. It was a very good and thought provoking question doggie.

Edited October 31, 2008 by Blackthorn

[Reverend Daniel]

I'm pretty much in agreement with most of what you said in your post Blackthorn.

I do believe when we die, we are judged on an individual basis. God leads us all in our own paths, I think. Our sin would be not to question what that path is, or to go against the path you know He set out for you. Some people use the words "a doubting Thomas" when people question what lies ahead, or what is true, but Thomas was not rebuked for his curiosity, Jesus gladly proved to Him what he was saying. By the way, if you haven't read the Gospel of Thomas, I highly recommend it.

[Cornelius]

Blackthorn,

Methinks in trying to label "what you are," in regards to belief, the term deist falls short. I think you have reached the point where you have unencumbered yourself with corporate religion and therefore should simply refer to yourself as a son of God (a child of God, to me, denotes a degree of spiritual immaturity - although we should always be dependent upon Him).

You have decided, as I understand it, to continue in the teachings of Jesus as pertains to the Father, for He has shown us the Father. If therefore, you, "son of man" now join with your heavenly Father as one, are you not then now adopted as His son, as He promises (He who comes to Me I will in no way, cast out")?

Not everyone can receive this information and understand it. We are sons/daughters of Man, of the earth, under the flesh. To us, Jesus has not only shown us, but given us, the Way to become son/daughters of God. What a mystery! Marvelous! "..that we should be called sons and daughters of the Most High God and "joint heirs with Christ!"

Abide in His love, my friend, and He shall work wonders in you. And, even if you forsake Him, He cannot, by His own word, leave you or forsake you. Such is His love for you and He will bless you with that same love to share with all others where, in the Spirit, "there is neither Jew nor Greek, male or female,"... only one with the Father. As Jesus said, "If you had known me, you would have known My Father...I and My Father are One"

When we humble ourselves before the Almighty "I AM" casting all else aside to truly seek and know Him, He lifts us up and cradles us in His Love and nothing can ever pluck us from His hands. Nothing.

Hmm, as a matter of fact, I too shall no longer refer to myself as a Christian for the sake of Man. No, I am, and have been and always will be (thank you, Jesus), a Son of the One True God. Amen!

Peace.

Thank you for the praise rev. I'm not so sure I deserve it

I'll return the favor by saying since you've been here you have been an inspiration and an example for me and I am sure others also.

I am comfortable with the title of deist because it frees me of having any set belief system beyond a creator and what I determine with my god given reason. It helps keep others from assuming they know exactly what I believe by what I am called. It is also the only term that accurately matches how I view the creator and his creation that I also identify with. I "found" God when I was 20 ft up in a tree, just after sunrise, next to a babbling brook. Surrounded by his creation and several squirrels running through the leaves. Not in the bible or in a church. So while I am a Son of God as we are all children of God I don't necessarily feel the need, led to call, or to accept that as "my title" right now. I always have had a deist outlook and felt a connection/led to it. I even thought at one point of calling myself a christian deist. I really don't like hyphenating words so to speak though especially what can be considered contradictory terms. The time may come for me to shed this title as well but know that either way, or whatever I am called, I am what I am also.

I am glad that you have had such a personal revelation though on account of this thread. I wish you well and hope for all the best

Thank you brother and may you continue to be such an inspiration to us

Edited October 31, 2008 by Blackthorn