Pete

Deja vu. I will not debate further with you

I remember Richard Bandler being told by a group of scientists that personality and behavour was fixed by the age of 5. Richard pulled out a gun and pointed it at the scientists and ask would this change your behaviour. The point is many beliefs are held but changed when stress, trauma or cognative dissonance forces them to adapt and behaviour is reassessed and choices are made.

I am confused Dan. You say your put off by religion but at the same time defend it to the hilt. It is because your not open to anything but your religion. So many conversations with you tell me your far from a free thinker. Every time we talk it always comes around to talking about your religion. I just wanted to talk free from you defending your religion . It is the reason I have not been on the forum for a while.

I apologise to the forum and Dan. It was an emotional outburst. I wanted to speak to other agnostics and atheists because I hope someone could help me with my struggle with my own mind. Jonathan has been helpful but I did not want this as an excuse to discuss someone elses religious agenda and hence my emotional outburst. Perhaps in hind sight I would have best been served by an email but then I would have not have got the experience of others. I am sorry.

I am sure that is true but if we talk about degrees some peoples position when faced with substantial evidence some of us change our cognative position. Others have their story but I have gone from fundamentalist to liberal Christian to agnostic and if I could see evidence to the contrary I would change all the way back if I could see substanciated evidence that was more than unsubstantiated myth. Whilst others hold their position no matter what.

True

When I started the post I was thinking in ULC respect but the more I wrote the more angry I got. I will not say anymore as it will only bring him back. However I am pissed with his intervention.

Dan you have justified killing women who are not virgins on their wedding night. Burning daughters of preists because the turn to prostitution. Killing people who turn to other faiths because it is in your bronze age book. You even said if god told you to kill you would. It is just like natzi guards who say they were just following orders and have no compassion or conscience to say this is wrong. Christianity is based torturing people in hell who do not believe as you do. This world is not perfect and therefore there is no righteous judgement and all because of a fictional being. All the way through history your faith has killed millions. I find the saying just like Natzies very fitting. You will never move from your fixed position so by definition you are not a free thinker. Besides that this section is for none religions so please go away.

With Respect Dan if you read my post ( I consider myself a agnostic and cognitively I know the biblical god is just rubbish to me. I feel embarrassed by what I am about to say but I find 50+ years of Christian indoctrination hard to shake off. I know you think this is stupid but it is a long term coping mechanism . I feel at odds with my cognative mind and my conditioned thoughts. I know I do not fit into any religious camp any more and I get cross with myself at times knowing my indoctrination is just nonsense. I wonder how others feel. I would be glad to here from other agnostics or atheists. ) I said that because I did not want your views or understanding (I use that term loosely ) on my feelings. Your one of the most fixed minded people I know and would hold to your bibliocist views no more what cruelty and heartlessness it brings about.

It is just difficult cognative dissonance is sometimes difficult before the bubble eventually pops over the conditioning.

Thank you RevBogovav. I am not at ease with it. I feel violated. Just about all in the bible I believe it nonsense and if I compare it too cultural history none of it make sense or its biblical concepts believable for me which makes annoyed with myself.

As I said I find biblical god cognitively stupid but I was indoctrinated since the days I could understand speech. It annoys me. I always remember my parents saying you can choose when your old enough to leave the family home yet it is not easy. The old Jesuite say give me the child and I give you the adult. Most children want to please their parents but it has consequences. I do not go to church or feel I fit in but my brothers and sisters still say god bless on parting. It just niggles me.

I consider myself a agnostic and cognitively I know the biblical god is just rubbish to me. I feel embarrassed by what I am about to say but I find 50+ years of Christian indoctrination hard to shake off. I know you think this is stupid but it is a long term coping mechanism . I feel at odds with my cognative mind and my conditioned thoughts. I know I do not fit into any religious camp any more and I get cross with myself at times knowing my indoctrination is just nonsense. I wonder how others feel. I would be glad to here from other agnostics or atheists.

Dear Rev Al, you were a loving and kind man and very conciderate .Your posts were always well thought out. Although I never met you in person I always wished I had. I was choked by the news and I still am tearfull. I miss you my friend.

Thanks Murph. I hope you are much better. This news has hit me

I heard bad news about Rev Al. I heard he died. If this is true I feel there should be a place where we can leave our thoughts for this gentle, thoughtful, and loving person on the forum. I will really miss him. Please forgive me if I missed it on the forum. I feel very choked.

Dreams often are about events in your own life and maybe portrayed in what ever fantasy that comes from your memories, If your low and tearful or someone around you is then you may dream about such things. Most dreams that you remember take place just before waking and your mind is coming too. Hence they are often associated with events in your life.

They used do that with me but I came back strong that made them look bad. Now they leave me alone.

I just wonder what does it matter what theists think of atheists. I think each person knows their own path in life and those who think you have no right to not believe in what they say are at fault. A person can be a Christian or an Atheist . Unfortunately there are many debates that are brought about by those who feel their view is right for all and all should adopt it or be at fault. In there is much turmoil. On topics like homosexuality the trouble is again not that a person is gay but those who keep saying they have no right to exist as a gay or it is some illness which needs curing. They then cause terrible misery. What others chose to say about theism should be for them only and they alone should live it and leave the rest of us alone. It is not that Atheists are not wanting to be saved but that they do not recognise anything to be saved from and the means of being so called saved is nonsense to them. Some do not understand this.

Very likely Jonathan. I saw on a documentary of an atheist church run like a traditional Christian episcopalian church. They just like the atmosphere.

I think it happens because many people do not see it your way.

The survey suggests that a large number of people who profess a faith do not believe it

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-39153121 The survey suggested: 17% of all people believe the Bible version word-for-word 31% of Christians believe word-for-word the Bible version, rising to 57% among "active" Christians (those who go to a religious service at least once a month) Exactly half of all people surveyed did not believe in the resurrection at all 46% of people say they believe in some form of life after death and 46% do not 20% of non-religious people say they believe in some form of life after death 9% of non-religious people believe in the Resurrection, 1% of whom say they believe it literally

Thanks Meredog. That pretty much kills the Isis, Ra and Elnil view point

I am also told "Israel" mean God is triumphant. Not speaking the languages, I just do not know. I just want to seperate the rubbish from the fact. Like I say I am not aiming to argue. Thanks. If anyone has further info I would be grateful