Atwater Vitki

Enoch vs Odhinn The ancient texts Since Stormbringer brought up the Book of Enoch in another thread, I thought I would post a piece of a comparative analysis I did several years ago when I first read the Book of Enoch. We often find similarities and references in all types of writing, both modern and ancient, but in our search for the origins of certain texts it gets even more frustrating due to the lack of availability of many codex, apocrypha and scrolls. For instance, the codex “Origins of Asgaard” noted below is kept from the public and available only to academics who must wait years to have a look at one of the Rune-Gilds most secretive texts. I'm very torn by this. I firmly believe that our most “sacred runic texts” should be kept within the gild, yet at the same time, release of even one of these works would settle many questions throughout the academic world. The “Origins...” is one codex that does not contain any particular runic formula or “secrets” and baffles me as to why it remains so closely guarded. Only the last two sections in "Origins" touch on the rune-staves. I have had very limited access to it through my friend in Stockholm, head of the International Rune Gild...but I digress. <<<Begin comparative texts>>> Book of Enoch Chapter XVIII (11)And I saw a deep abyss, with columns of heavenly fire, and among them I saw columns of fire fall, which were beyond measure alike towards the height and towards the depth. 12. And beyond that abyss I saw a place which had no firmament of the heaven above, and no firmly founded earth beneath it: there was no water upon it, and no birds, but it was a waste and horrible place. 13. I saw there seven stars like great burning mountains, and to me, when I inquired regarding them, 14. The angel said: 'This place is the end of heaven and earth: this has become a prison for the stars and the host of heaven. 15. And the stars which roll over the fire are they which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord in the beginning of their rising, because they did not come forth at their appointed times. 16. And He was wroth with them, and bound them till the time when their guilt should be consummated (even) for ten thousand years.' CHAPTER XIX. (1)And Uriel said to me: 'Here shall stand the angels who have connected themselves with women, and their spirits assuming many different forms are defiling mankind and shall lead them astray into sacrificing to demons as gods, (here shall they stand,) till the day of the great judgement in which they shall be judged till they are made an end of. 2. And the women also of the angels who went astray shall become sirens.' 3. And I, Enoch, alone saw the vision, the ends of all things: and no man shall see as I have seen. CHAPTER XX. 1. And these are the names of the holy angels who watch. 2. Uriel, one of the holy angels, who is over the world and over Tartarus. 3. Raphael, one of the holy angels, who is over the spirits of men. 4. Raguel, one of the holy angels who †takes vengeance on† the world of the luminaries. 5. Michael, one of the holy angels, to wit, he that is set over the best part of mankind and over chaos. 6. Saraqâêl, one of the holy angels, who is set over the spirits, who sin in the spirit. 7. Gabriel, one of the holy angels, who is over Paradise and the serpents and the Cherubim. 8. Remiel, one of the holy angels, whom God set over those who rise. From the Codex “Origins of Asgaard” ca. 250-220 BCE, translation by Piers Bengtsson Section IV “The Abyss” Herjafoðr (Father of the Army- one of many names for Odhinn) came to a place where one day mighty battles would commence. Knowing well his advantages, as any father should, he sought what disadvantage may befall him. Upon the rise doth he saw fire within fire and smoke billowing from smoke as such that no heaven or land existed beyond it. Thus it had been for ten thousand years and would be for a time hence, longer still. Beyond constrained sights he beheld, there was nothing, not even the emptiness of Gunningagap nor limitless darkness of Hel. There was a nothingness to this place as such not even Light or Dark, animal or mankind, dwarve or giant, god or goddess could be seen therein. Between the smoke rise, yet not as far as Väfrlogi (wall of flames) there hung seven mighty stars in the heavens, but not heavens, and beings giving honor to the gods, yet not gods. In this place time revealed no measure nor day light nor night darkness. In this place even the mightiest and wisest were confounded as wot appeared before them. Above the seven stars did hang a goddess, but not goddess, god, but not god, being but not being that held the secrets of this place. To Herjafoðr it commanded these words; I will call forth those whom thou shall command in times of thy absence, for the Great One may demand this more of thee than even ye shouldst know. And might I also explain that while there exists in Asgaard the likenesses of these same beings, their reflection doth reside here in this place between worlds, just as the gods reside in the place between men's mortal hearts and ethereal minds. Knowst thou first how to keep their material form separate from their spirit form. The first is Ödesdiger (Odhinn)(1) who rules over all, even thou, cunning Herjafoðr, knowst this well. The second is Frismelda (Vòr), ruling the hearts of the wistful, wise and earthly alike The third is Fredsson (Ull), enforcer of oaths by warrior, craftsman and god alike thus made. The forth is Gildis (Forsetti), debater of morals and administrator of the Ancient Laws The fifth is Dännar (Thor) ruler of mankind and chaos, defender of the righteous The sixth is Tangakrökt (Loki) the deceiver and commander of fools The seventh is Felfri (Balder) the one without fault who oversees the uprise of the good Forever more upon the stars that wot hang between this world and the abyss is where ye shall find them at your bidding. Caution might I instill in thee that no god but Odhinn call upon these names. Should it be so, even unknowning, the End of Days shall be worse than Rägnarôk, the long awaited battle from which no god nor mortal can escape. <<<end comparative text>>> So which came first? By timeline the “Origins of Asgaard” was written somewhere mid 3rd century BCE and the Book of Enoch 2nd century BCE, therefor predates the Book of Enoch by roughly 100 years, give or take. Read it for yourself and I'm sure the similarities will astound you as much as they did me. Even the most educated Nordic scholars are at odds about exactly when the Nordic seamen began to travel to places beyond what is now the UK, Spain and France. The exact period they reached such places as the Middle East is unknown. However, when we find such striking similarities between stories, something acknowledged by all scholars as being gifted to the world by seafarers, there is little doubt some form of contact was made between the early Gnostics and Nordic seafarers. In my mind, the only question that remains is this; Did the Gnostics give the Nordics the bit of the story above or did the Nordic tell it to the Gnostics? What other comparatives have you found or are willing to contribute? Blessings of Peace, (1) This may also have been a sly work of kenning, where it was common for the story to give clues that something thought to be a deceit was known by the opponent or person being tricked. It was also used to let one character know the other was “on to him/her”. (All refs) bracketed and in green I added to original text to give clarity for those not familiar with Nordic kenning and skalding. Odhinn is given somewhere along the order of 350 different names throughout the Eddas and other works. Other gods and goddesses have similarly been cross referenced having several titles or names assigned to them. This was prevalent in Nordic mythology. In old Norse: Ödesdiger = “omniscient one" or in this use "one on high” Frismelda = “cold mixture” Fredsson = son of peace and wool - “ull” is the traditional gift of/for peace Gildis = to shine brightly, golden Dännar = dän - thunder or to rumble Tangakrökt = “bent tooth”, nickname for someone not telling the truth or trickster Felfri = “without guilt”

So be it. Many Blessings be unto you. (That's all I'm suppose to say, but my curiosity is killing me for details!!)

As usual Jonathan, profound. One of the greatest lessons learned while studying my path, and I apply to my Self on a regular basis, is that the process of Becoming is never "complete" or has and "end". It is, in essence, a continuous evolution as experience reevaluates our knowledge in a never ending cycle. And yes, Bro Kaman, we humans all have areas where we could be classified as hypocritical to a degree. I think it is when that "degree" overwhelms our moral or ethical base that we begin to have problems with Self. Keeping this in check is a part of our evolution as "ministers" in whatever direction we have set for ourselves. Rev. Patty- every time I read that someone has learned, grown or in some way advanced their chosen Spiritual Path, it always gives me a warm fuzzy ... especially when someone acknowledges this forum as being even a small part of that new awareness or understanding. Blessings of Peace,

The only dreams I recall being bi-lingual have all been pretty much nightmares. Blessings Be,

...and if a bubble bursts and no one is around to hear it do so, does it still make a sound? an' now.......back to our regularly scheduled posting....

Yes, definitely, dreams are put into several categories; Precognitive, Psychological, Physiological and Mystic to name a few. (Again from old class notes) I find an interesting, supporting list HERE as well. The precog, like you had I find fascinating and a bit disturbing at the same time. When my ex and I were home invaded in Willow Creek, I had a precog about a week before which I clearly saw the perpetrator, someone I did not know and I don't recall ever seeing around town. The interesting part was I didn't connect the dots to the dream and event during the horrific event. I wasn't until waiting for the sheriff to arrive I consciously recalled having the dream. We were discussing that connection when the patrol cars rolled up, both shaken, not stirred, and rattled to the bone. When being counseled, several weeks after, the therapist was one of those that adamantly denied "dreams" having any logical place in real life and dismissed any connection. Figures, being a law enforcement "recommended" therapist. As the ex was/is a naturopathic remedies healer and we both firmly believed in the Universal Energies, after hearing that, well let's just leave at that was our last visit. No one will ever convince me there wasn't some sort of cosmic connection between the dream and later event, in any of the three I mentioned. I also agree that even dreams of the same category can't always be neatly "boxed" as even slight inferences/variations can have a whole other implications. Blessings Be,

I have both read in text books and heard in lecture the same reasoning about our inability to create faces.....however, I still have a bit of trouble with that analysis. I've quite often had very identifiable pieces of faces, like eyes of one, chin/mouth of other, nose and cheeks of yet another person I know in reality form the face of someone in my dreams and yet others I'm fairly certain I've never, ever seen before as I have a fairly good memory "thing" about faces. I've also had happen three times, that I'm consciously aware of, seeing a completely unknown person to me in dream and then within days to a week meet that person in life. In all three occasions it turned out to be a rather horrific or intense scene when meeting them. By supposedly "learned" people, I've been informed: (taken from study notes in my Dream Book) "Dreams are little more than potential hopscotch and abstract thoughts of our muddled minds." "Dreams simply represent the mind's endless questions in dramatic, play like scenarios." "Dreams are merely representative of our desperation to rationalize cognitive thoughts that can not be made sense of." "Throughout the course of our lives, the flotsam and jetsam of irrationality builds up into a never ending flood of creative visions put into our consciousness through dreams." "Dreams are our reality. What we experience in what we believe to be our everyday reality is actually the dream." So yes, absolutely, I still have more questions than answers regarding dreams and what purpose or usefulness they serve. In the case of this latest series of very off the wall visions I'm inclined to believe it just a bunch of nonsensical flotsam and jetsam playing hopscotch in my muddled mind while I desperately attempt to rationalize them! How about ya'll? What do you think oddball, crazy dreams try and "tell us" or inform us about? Blessings Be,

I'm glad my fuzzy, foggy mind decided to look instead of act! I thought there had been a previous discussion to what I was going to posit in a new topic. As always Fawzo, gmta! Lately I've been having series after series of the most incredible dreams. The more I try to think about what may have triggered such obscure, abstract and obtuse dreams, from daily life, the more complex and confusing it gets as nothing would seem to indicate the actions of any given day would have compelled such dreams. I also go back to what I said above and try and relate what I was told by Native American shaman that the "dream world" is actually reality and here, where I sit and type out this tirade is in fact our true dream...I don't think I quite get that, still, as this is such a linear reality compared to the random and completely unorganized series of dreams. So, going back to your original supposition Fawzo, are we responsible for our dreams? OR.... Are these visions intended to give us some form of deeper Spiritual meaning as proposed in religious texts? Are they "messages" from our sub- and supra-consciousness intended to enlighten us, as proposed by a long line of philosophers? Are they simply the manner in which our brain attempts to translate mental flotsam and jetsam into a physical reality? Are they simply meaningless constructs of over active imaginations? And, has been posited a couple of times above, emphatically "NO!" do I believe we are responsible for what we dream or think, but an astounding "YES!" that we are responsible for any action on those dreams and thoughts. I don't think this topic really got fully discussed so I'm happy to have revived it! Blessings Be,

I fell asleep last night, again, with the TV on and awoke to "Clash of the Titans" and heard Liam Neeson (Zeus?) say something provocative...."we need people to pray to the gods, without it we lose our power!" ...as he was talking to Perceus. A few minutes later I was back in ethereal dispatch but that must of been the catalyst for my dreams. Did "God" or the "gods" create mankind or did mankind create "God/gods"? seemed to be the focus of at least two dreams I remember bits of. Even now as I sit here in foggy, achy, body revenge...for having done waaaay too much the last few days, it is a thought that permeates my thinking. I would think the evidence would dictate we created the gods/God as we have absolutely zip, zero nada to indicate they/He created us. No, I don't consider books written and rewritten by man to be proof of anything. Basic instincts tells us cooperation and friendly exchange with people is less threatening than being at odds or at war with others, therefore a simple survival method to be moral, ethical and do good for all rather than bad, thus turning everyone else against you. Over the past 250,000 years we've refined and defined this sense of "moral code" into the highest level of "survival mode". We're at odds with those who do not share our own sense of right and wrong, therefore learn at an early age to climb on the morality bandwagon to gain the highest number of allies. While those that don't may get away with harming others for a time, it usually doesn't last very long. Of course we have the Right to be Wrong, it's just not in our best interest to do so. One can not stand against the masses, regardless of what the masses sense of morality may be. It is not necessary to have created gods or God, as it is survival mode to have a moral code, a natural response to Continuation. If "God"/gods had created us, there would be no question our origins would be instilled within us and this would all be a moot point. Blessings of Peace,

Too trippy....last night I had one of my "really weird" dreams in which a fellow in a strange wheel chair was the focus. I've sat here for a couple hours this morning trying to place a name on him as I just knew I had seen this guy before. Lo and behold a Bingo! = Prof. Hawking. The name just completely slipped by conscious thought and then I drop in here and...wow....too trippy. The details don't matter, but he was trying, again and again to run his chair off a cliff, out of jet-liners, off buildings all sorts of various attempts at "ending it all" of which I and some unseen person were trying to keep him from doing it. It was like our job or duty or such to keep this one person in check and from accomplishing his desired goal. One of those ultra real, very visceral dreams. Very odd choice of character though as I don't recall anything to do with Hawking since a Science Channel special many months ago. Well I can certainly get on with my day now! Blessings Be,