Jonathan H. B. Lobl

Keep on telling me what I believe. Maybe some day, you'll get a little closer. Of course, you could try actually listening, for a change.

It's all that blather, about the All Good God that gets me. Like they never read the Book at all. Only worshiped it.

Just so. Imagine wanting to believe that the God of the Bible is real. It's like wishing Freddy Kruger into existence. But so much worse.

You also believe that the Exodus is a historic event.

You could have gone further. The Pre-Christian Pagans, had a lot of gods. Satan was not one of them. Satan was a Christian invention. It does turn Satan into the perfect political vessel, for protesting Christian bullies.

I think the most amazing thing about Songster, is the venom of his insults. Which he then forgets. Or says he forgets.

King Arthur is the perfect example. Jesus has Apostles. King Arthur had the Knights of the Round Table. Also the mystic sword, courtesy of The Lady of The Lake. And the Wife of Saintly virtue and purity. All larger than life. The real King Arthur, if there was one -- would never recognize himself in the legends. Likewise, the Legendary Robin Hood -- A historic Robin of Luxley -- might have existed. The Master Archer; quarter staff master; master tactician; etc. seems unlikely. That is the problem with folklore. Legend over comes and over whelms history.

Since it's you, I feel comfortable making conversation. In matters of post death existence, I take an Agnostic stance. I don't know. Assertions aside, nobody knows. To my perspective, Life is short. After that, there are two possibilities. Either something happens, or nothing happens. If nothing happens, I won't even find out. If something happens, there are two possibilities. It will be an unconscious something, or a conscious something. If it's an unconscious something, I won't even find out. If it's a conscious something, it will be interesting. We will all know soon enough. Or not. In the end, speculation counts for nothing and arguing is a waste of time. I've also encountered people who knew -- with great conviction -- all about the reality of reincarnation. I also refused to argue with them. Life is too short to waste in silly arguments, with arrogant people.

Look a little deeper. Judge a little less. You are still mistaken.

Nice try. Attempting reason, with a true believer. is a waste of effort.

Ouch.

You know a lot less about my understanding than you think. Your evaluation of your own understanding is lacking in substance. For the rest -- you think that you are in a position to lead someone to enlightenment? You? Of all the smug, condescending, arrogant..... Words fail. Try and impress someone, with your great wisdom, who gives a crap.

Wait. You're serious.

I suspect that there were multiple real people, whose legends and sayings merged over time. Add a bit of pious fraud -- some politics -- some fraudulent insertions -- and we will never know the truth. The facts are lost to us.

There is another take on Jesus, which I used to advocate for, in my younger days. This is to compare Jesus to Buddha. In Buddhism, anyone can gain enlightenment. Anyone can become a Buddha. The historic Buddha is less than the Path. In the same manner, anyone can gain Christ Consciousness and become a Christ. The historic Jesus, in the same way, is less than the Path. This is not my current line of thought. For years, it was. A relic of my past. From the time when I regarded myself as a Pantheist.

The horse is worse than dead. The flies are gathering. I think the worst part is watching the wheel repeat. Dan throws crap at us. We respond. Then he says that we're "just angry". Well, I'm bored. Happy New Year.

I've been watching your arguments with Dan. You try to argue facts. He meets you with faith statements. The problem is, faith is fact proof. I'm going to take a break from the arguing. There is no exchange of ideas and nothing to be gained. Just arguing. It grows tedious. I'm finding it unpleasant. Truly, not worth the effort. I hope you don't feel abandoned. If you want a friendly chat, I'm here for you.

1. So. The only unforgivable sin is leaving the faith? I can't say that I'm surprised. 2. Your terms. Not his. How about evidence which is not improbable -- to the point of being ludicrous?

You compared the publication of Scripture, to baking apple pie. There is a huge difference between the pie made by a Master Baker -- and an assistant. Apple pie. What an example. The Snake from Genesis would approve. Maybe, you don't care where your apples come from? "The gift of knowledge ......."

Of course, you could change your mind. If the evidence indicated that a change was reasonable. You are evidence oriented. It is "faith" that can't change. Faith can shatter. Faith can crumble. Faith can be lost. But it can't change.

Of course. But it's so much worse than that. The All Knowing would know -- in perfect detail -- every bit of mischief and mayhem, that Scripture would ever produce -- into the distant future. After all, God remembers the future. Think of the thousands killed over the theology of transubstantiation. Was the Wafer really turned into the flesh and blood of Christ? Or was it only symbolic? An All Knowing and All Loving God, might have been more careful with minor, mediocre details. There is also the small -- insignificant -- issue of the Koran. Produced in identical manner to the Bible. With Human scribes. Such a sense of humor. What could possibly go wrong, using Human scribes, to create Scripture? If the Bible had been published directly by God -- the people who produced the Koran, could never have done so. If the Koran had been published directly by God -- that would have been equally informative. What did we get instead? 1400 years -- give or take -- of Holy War. Of course, if the Torah had been published directly by God -- We wouldn't have the Gospels or the Koran. It's almost as though people made the whole thing up. Imagine.

A minor detail. There are other Holy Books, "inspired" by God and written by people -- all claiming to be "The Word". ,Since God has neither produced one set directly, nor destroyed the others; I can find no reason to favor one Book over another. They are all equally suspect. Also, if the assertion in Romans is true, that the Word is already on my Heart -- I should not need any of them. I look upon the world that exists. Not the world I want, but the world that looks back at me. What do I see? Many religions, each with many sub-divisions. This is what I would expect to see if God were a fantasy. What would the world look like if God were real? There would be one undivided religion. If there were a church, there would be one church and it would be free of scandal. At minimum -- one set of Books. One perfect set without errors of any kind. Or internal conflict. Free of fraud or tampering. Easily understood without studies in ancient language or history. Indestructible by fire or decay, with the originals available for comparison. Too much for Human authors. Nothing for the perfect God. Of course, if we have a trickster God, who wants to play hide and seek with it's Creation -- who wants to see a demonstration of "faith" without proof -- who gives us a young world that is designed to look old and deceive -- then God can take the consequences. The more so, if God uses Human scribes -- all imperfect -- and tolerates many books from many religions. And the task of creating "The Word" is described as mediocre? Something that God can't be bothered with taking care of? A side note. I have read the Bible more than I have read the other Books. The cruelty and sadism of God. The treatment of women and gay people. Etc. etc. This more than anything else is what destroyed my faith. I don't think that the perfect Book would have that effect.

God couldn't be bothered?

A mediocre task? The inerrant Word? A mediocre task?

My point exactly. God created the entire Universe and everything in it. God then needs help with a book? With THE BOOK? Why does God need Scribes? Or printing presses? Or anything else? How strange, that God can't make anything, that people can make. Do you know how silly that sounds?