Jonathan H. B. Lobl

I followed your link and got lost. How did we get from an expanding Universe -- with the rate of expansion speeding up -- to infinite cycles? I'm not arguing. I'm asking.

The Monastery put more effort into their site. Aside from that? Their forum vanished years ago. Just another on line store, pretending to be a church.

An addendum: I'm not real clear on what it takes, for an on line church to be real. (Something more than a web site) As a practical matter, If the ULC loses this forum -- it will reduce the Church to being an on line store. They can still sell their books, certificates, diplomas, shirts and other goods. I think it takes more than a store to be a church. The ULCHQ site, is still looking forward to their big convention -- in 1995. There's not a lot of life there, either. I'm not in a position to judge how much life is in the Modesto Church. When the Modesto Chamber of Commerce, sent me their list of Churches -- the ULC was not on the list. Evidently, there is a great deal that Andre does not care about. Where does that leave the Church? A corporate entity with no life -- and a dying board. If Andre wants to kill the board, because it's too much trouble -- well -- We will see what happens. I expect it will be a death spiral. If anything as lifeless as this church, can be said to spiral. The board could still come back -- with new, active administration. What do you think is likely?

At this point, my concern is that the Pagan -- and Heathen -- voices on this board have gone silent. It's a sad loss. I miss them. I expect that some of them got disgusted, between the binary of Monotheistic true believers -- and the opposing binary of Atheists, Agnostics, etc. The conflict between Monotheistic belief and non-belief doesn't leave much room for others. I'm sure that some of my own arguments, have contributed. It's unfortunate. Alas, when I'm arguing with a Monotheistic true believer, subtleties get lost. There are also real differences in the Polytheistic world. Distinctions as wide as the differences between Christianity and Islam. Or between Sunni and Shia. Between Catholic and Baptist. I get that Pagans can hate being lumped in together. Since you're Buddhist, I can tell you that I took "empowerment initiation" to Medicine Buddha and White Tara. At the time, I was pursuing the Buddhist origins of Reiki. I took another initiation to Sekhmet. Said to be the origin of Seikhim Reiki. I have no other connection to the Egyptian Pantheon. For similar reasons, I was initiated to Kuan Yin. Now, to your response. I used to be acquainted with a Druid. He said that he was a priest. He was also a ULC minister. He said that this was to perform legal weddings. He said that the State didn't know anything about Druids and he didn't want to discuss it with them. I think that you had similar motives, in getting the ULC ordination. I also think that the military, might have a legitimate use, for Pagan Chaplains. I'm not sure that the military should have any chaplains -- but if they must -- there is no reason to exclude Pagan Chaplains. There are institutional problems. The military has a list of organizations that can propose chaplains. The American Humanist Association is trying to sponsor a Humanist Chaplain. The American Department of Defense isn't having it. The Pagan world, would need to have an institution, that the Department of Defense would recognize. How much of the Pagan world could work with that particular Pagan body? This won't be easy. Less grief if the government is not involved. Still, how much do the different Pagan groups, really want to work together? I'm not in a position to know. That was the point of the article.

Alright. I look forward to a real conversation.

Which still leaves the question. What is the intent behind the original? It's much worse than translating modern Hebrew into modern English. This is ancient Hebrew -- and the cultural gap is staggering. To me, it looks like Astrology. For one thing, it presumes sentience on the part of the Sun and Moon. This is consistent, with the Biblical calling the stars, the Host of Heaven. In other words, God's army or angels.

I have been watching the You Tube videos on physics and cosmology. In particular, Neil DeGrase Tyson -- of the Hayden Planetarium. It is only the space between galaxies that is expanding. The gravitational forces within the galaxies are strong enough to counter this force -- generally called, dark energy. If this were not the case, galaxies would lose cohesion and the stars would fly off. If all space were expanding in our solar system -- the orbits of all the planets would be expanding. We would be getting more and more distance between ourselves and the Sun and we would all be dead from the cold. If all space everywhere were expanding -- molecules would fly apart. There would be no matter -- anywhere.

That's the problem, isn't it? Nobody knows. Buddha was never anything more than a man. An important man, because he had good spiritual insights -- but only a man. It is small wonder, that his words were damaged, in the transmission. It seems unlikely, that Buddha intended to create a new religion. Certainly, not a new class of professional monk. I think that he was trying to reform the Hinduism of his time. The words of Jesus, supposedly, had God's backing. His message met the same distorted fate as Buddha's. Maybe worse. I can say that with confidence, because there are about 40,000 different flavors of Christianity. The New Testament itself, records some of the disagreements about circumcision and dietary observance. Without Paul's intervention, there would have been no mission to the gentiles. The Jesus movement would have remained a Jewish movement -- and it would have been absorbed back into Judaism -- much as Buddha has been claimed by Hinduism -- as an avatar of Vishnu, the Preserver. In the end, it comes down to faith. Some have it. Some don't. I need evidence.

My sense of things, is that if there was a historic Jesus -- behind all the stories and mythology -- he was a reformer. By that I mean that he was interested in reforming the Judaism of his day. In particular, there is the story of a gentile woman, who wanted a healing from Jesus. He called her a dog, because she wasn't Jewish. Also, it was Paul, who took the Jesus movement to the gentiles. There is nothing in the Gospels to suggest that Jesus wanted a gentile following. The legendary conflict between Peter and Paul suggests that Peter wanted no part of a gentile mission. There is the Great Commission, where the risen Christ commands his followers, to spread the Good News. I think this puts us back into mythology and pious fraud. What we now think of as Christianity, was birthed, not by Jesus, but by Paul. A man who first met Jesus, on the road to Damascus. To my understanding, more mythology and pious fraud. The story becomes more ludicrous, when Paul lectures the Jews on the real Jesus. The man he never met. Back to your point. Would Jesus recognize anything, about Christianity, in any of it's forms? I truly doubt that.

No need. Look at the monk's in Burma, inciting violence, in direct contradiction to Dharma. The world is a strange place and getting weirder.

The King James Version speaks of ruling the day and ruling the night. That sounds like Astrology -- to me. The greater light is the Sun. The lesser light is the Moon. That makes the Sun and Moon -- rulers. Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations Genesis 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

There are Buddhists who will tell us, that Buddhism is a practice -- suitable for followers of all religions. In Indonesia, which has religious freedom -- -- there is a government list of legal religions. Buddhism is one of the options. Do you want consistency?

We could quote the Bible. (Ecc.) "There is nothing new under Heaven."

I seriously doubt that this is what Buddha intended. I also doubt that Buddha intended a professional monk class. Well, once you have professional clergy -- and seminaries -- the rest follows. What are they teaching the lay people? The best karma of all, flows from feeding the monks and supporting the temples.

We could make similar observations about the Gospels -- which translate as Good News. The propaganda of it's time. The Good News must be true. See? Someone reported these stories as true. Even though much of the content, is about the people who insisted it was a lie. Even though parts of it are ludicrous.

I'm not upset. Calling bullcrap, on blatant Christian propaganda, is tedious and boring. If Christians cared more, about the sin of bearing false witness, I wouldn't have to. Don't worry. I'm used to it.

Thank you. This is interesting.

Aside from the newspaper article, which Dan quotes -- all the other sites listed are Christian propaganda sites. Much like the propagandists who wrote the Bible -- I find their deep concern for objective truth, to be lacking. That's me being nice.

It doesn't matter what we call it. In silence, we hear truth.

Not Tribal. They are not expanding. Possibly to Pagan sites. I don't know.

The Pagan voices on this board have gone silent. I miss them.

All of which brings us to Apologetics. The same tired arguments, yet again, as though for the first time. No evidence at all. Nothing. I have no issue with the beliefs of others. I need more, than what is available.

Yes. The line that always gets me -- even now -- is -- Prove my God doesn't exist. This usually leads to an argument, about, who has the burden of proof. They want us to prove that their invisible friend isn't real. There was a time, when I would have joined the argument. I'm not as nice as I used to be. Now, I'm more inclined to say, Grow up.