Jonathan H. B. Lobl

Actually, an evil and manipulative God might do that. Assuming of course, that there are ulterior motives.

Are we done talking about the Falun Dafa people? We spend a lot of time on this board talking about religious persecution and outlawing immoral religion. In the mean time, we have a living example of a non-theistic religious group being persecuted by a secular government. I thought it was worth exploring.

I agree. If I set up a line of dominoes and knock over the first; I have knocked over all the dominoes. I can not claim to have knocked over only the first domino. This kind of chain of events, where the end result is known, is all one causal chain. The first cause is responsible for all of them. To suggest otherwise is to say that God can be surprised. So much for all knowing. One more thought on the subject of "free will." If a tell a young child, with no experience or understanding, not to put beans up his nose -- What do I think is going to happen? The fastest way to make a criminal -- or a sinner -- is to make a rule or a law. Is this what God couldn't understand? Such a limited deity.

Yes.

By all means, let us split hairs. In at least some of Native American culture; tobacco was/is part of ceremony and religious practice. Sometimes, things are not so simple.

The chain of reason is clear enough: God created all things. Evil exists God created evil. An all good God does not create evil. God is not all good.

Yes. That is what I meant.

What language are you speaking? It looks like English. The meaning is twisted out of it. Thank you for demonstrating that God is not righteous. External reality still means something to me. History? The past lives.

It was.

The problem with confused thinking is that it's confused. It takes reasoning skill to correct faulty thinking. When someone lacks the ability to think clearly -- telling them that they are lying is not a useful strategy for change. It might make you feel good, but it won't change them.

According to the doctrine of Original Sin, I entered the world already a sinner. That leaves small room for choice or disobedience. That means that I'm already a sinner. Your nuance is without meaning.

Just because someone is using sloppy, confused thinking, does not mean he is lying. In this case, I think it's cognitive dissonance.

Oh,please. Even I know the doctrine of Original Sin.

As you say. The Chinese Communist Party likes to be in complete charge of human thought. It is an over simplification. Falun Gong is largely a combination of Buddhism, Taoism, qi gong exercises, meditation and other elements. They were outlawed in 1999. Christianity is not getting a free pass in China. The "house churches" are an underground movement. When they are caught, they face disaster. Buddhism is also not much in favor. Consider what is happening in Tibet. If you were in China, for sure you would have gotten thrown into prison or killed. I think this is worth repeating. Nothing good comes from outlawing or persecuting religion.

No. The secular government of China. Vicious, deadly persecution. The source of human organs that China is selling all over the world. They are also known as Falun Gong.

Not really. Consider the persecution of the Falun Dafa people in China. We have a nontheistic religion; which is spreading like wildfire all over the world -- because it is being persecuted.

Are we playing a numbers game? Even if Christianity is the largest religion in the world -- I doubt it -- that just makes it a big cult.

Yes. It did fail for Christianity. The new church became an extension of the State. The shell survived but it became all rot at the center. This is not victory. In any event, reality is not a numbers game. What is, is. What is not, is not.

Nicely done. I think you are getting more clear in expressing yourself. At this point, much of my disagreement with you is of a semantic instead of an important nature.

I have no problem, with not respecting bad religion. "Outlawing" is an other matter. "Outlawing" religions is doomed to failure.

I find Atheism similar to being vegetarian. In a world where nobody ate meat, there wouldn't even be a word for vegetarian. Atheism, as a word, is reactive in the same way. In a godless world, there would be no Atheists and no word for Atheism.

I can not say what will please God. If this particular ceremony needs the approval of the Roman Catholic Church -- someone from the RCC will have to perform it. No. The RCC will not recognize the credentials of the ULC. Possibly good enough for God. Not good enough for the RCC.

The Catholic Church does not recognize the ULC. If the goal is RCC recognition, they will have to do it. Perhaps, two baptisms? One at the Hall and one at the RCC?

How do we outlaw a religion without the use of violence? Beware. The cure is as bad as the disease.

It's a good opinion. We don't want to be permanent prisoners of the past.