Jonathan H. B. Lobl

Most of the time I would agree with you. Most, but not all. There are a few traditional paths which have a history of being dangerous. Kabalah is esoteric Judaism. It is famous for leading to insanity. Kundalini Yoga. By reputation at least, a dangerous path. Another path to insanity. Sometimes, things really are dangerous and should be kept under lock and key for public safety.

Maybe you're right. I just checked my e-mail. There's a Nigerian drug runner who wants to make me rich.

This is getting silly. Is someone warning me that God exists? Or is the warning about Hell Fire? Maybe savage unicorns or vicious fairies? Santa Claus? Bigfoot? Dracula? The Reptilians? Dangerous space aliens? Poltergeists? A tiger in my bedroom? There comes a point -- screw it. As to the salesman with the better deal -- I routinely hang up on telemarketers. No deal is worth putting up with them.

In the Gospels, during the Crucifixion, the tombs open and the dead walk among the living. Just a normal day in Jerusalem. No outside source thinks that this is worth mentioning.

Used car sales men also like to ask their prey, what it would take to convince them to buy. This is the time to walk away.

I have been wondering why I have to always be the one to worry about being fair. There comes a point where I have to use my judgement, weight the available evidence and reach a conclusion. At least, a tentative conclusion. Much like science. I have reached it. There is no reason to take the idea of God seriously. Christians come to a point where they have to accept or reject the claims of Islam. Jews come to a point where they have to accept or reject the claims of Christianity. Agnostics and Atheists come to a point where they have to accept or reject the claims about God. I'm there and I'm done.

Of course I could have missed something. I am still open to new evidence. Sad to say, all I ever get to look at is the same miserable warmed over crap, repeated endlessly. It is good to have an open mind. Not so open that the brain falls out. A side issue is the people presenting the arguments. I have to say arguments because they have no evidence. People who put everything on faith and belief and disdain evidence, lack credibility. When they are clearly motivated by fear, this also lessens their credibility. Likewise, when they are ignorant and incapable of coherent or critical thinking. I will admit to one strong bias. When the opening line is -- Prove there is no God -- or -- Prove to me that God doesn't exist -- they have already lost me. They have nothing to say that I want to hear. They can't even define the god that they believe in or demonstrate that it exists. I'm supposed to disprove it. The sad thing is -- the vast bulk of religious discourse is on that level. When I do find intelligence -- Hermano Luis comes to mind as a prime example -- Or Brother Kaman -- I have no difficulty in saying -- "Maybe.".

I have already concluded, for myself, that the evidence for God is lacking. There is nothing further to achieve. I'm satisfied. If someone else is not satisfied with this -- it is not my problem. It is for the believer to either let it go -- which is my preference -- or else show me something that is not a waste of my time. I'm done with requests to pray. I am not interested in a hypnotic induction. I am tired of being told to search the Scriptures. I've searched. I'm tired of being told that belief is a choice. So is mental illness. I'm tired of terrorist threats of eternal damnation. I so despise bullies. I'm tired of appeals to First Cause. As though that has anything to do with the God of Scripture. I'm done. I am not playing hard to get. I'm done with the search. I'm not looking. I don't care. By the numbers: 1. I am Agnostic. I don't know. 2. I am Atheist. I don't believe. 3. I am Apatheist. I don't care.

At this point in my life, I am outside of Jewish theology. I do retain a Jewish cultural perspective. God is the **ty friend who tells you -- "Don't worry. Leave everything to me." Then he doesn't show. The religion is very good at making all sorts of promises. Not so great at keeping them. An absolute wonder at inventing a history where God does deliver. Not in real life -- but a wonder in ideology.

You think that all claims require the same amount of evidence? Tell me that I need Vitamin C to avoid scurvy and I'll consider the evidence. Tell me that I need Jesus to avoid Hell Fire -- that has to be some good evidence.

In our personal philosophy, we all have growth and development. Assuming of course that we are growing and developing as human beings. Your humanity is sound enough. The rest is detail.

Then what is it that God is jealous of? A simple lack of devotion? And what are the people worshiping in the groves and high places? A mere metaphor? In a tribal Theocracy, worshiping the old gods is deadly serious. Not a poetic fancy. Think of the times as a Jewish Saudi Arabia. People died over these things. Then again, if it's ALL mythology and none of it happened, what are we to make of the Scriptures? At the least, it has something to say about the attitudes of the religious authorities.

It depends on which page you are on. In Isaiah and the Psalms, God is the only one. Going back to the Ten Commandments: "I am the Lord your God. You will have no other gods before me." "For I, the Lord your God am a jealous god........." In other words, the other gods are there. There are also the lesser prophets, who scold the chosen people for "whoring after other gods." Not really an issue, unless there are other gods to whore after. There are also all the incidents of back sliding, where the chosen are "worshiping in the groves and high places." Any concordance will take you to "groves" and "high places." It seems to have happened a lot.

1. Would it be helpful to speak of "evidence" instead of "proof"? 2. I never defined what I meant by "bigfoot". Much like conversations about God -- we are discussing evidence for the existence of something that has no definition.

I do avoid it. Outlandish exploitation also bothers me. Charging people seriously big bucks, for basic instruction in mantra meditation, is disgusting. Such outrageous exploitation. People in the West are so vulnerable to Eastern con artists.

Thank you. I don't want to say that I have seen and done it all. But I have seen and done a lot. Frequently, way more than the people who question my Atheism. Who Insist that I must be angry with God. That I should try prayer. Screw it all. There is no going back. I was working with Pantheism for a while. In the end that also failed.

It forced me to be honest with myself. I really had to search my heart at that point, and ask if I actually believed any of it. The answer came back, loud and clear. No. I did not believe any of it. Not one word. I was living a lie. Without integrity. I had to stop. I had to be authentic. One side note. It's amazing how many people have asked me if I gave religion a fair chance.

There are different layers of proof that might be asked for, depending on the claim. 1. There is a Bigfoot living in my apartment. 2. He is fluent in English. 3. He writes wonderful original poetry. 4. He was born on Mars. At every step along the way, the claims become more extreme. The burden of proof also becomes more extreme.

On the level of pure mythology, Genesis agrees with you. Abraham's father was a maker of "idols." It points to the Polytheistic roots of Judaism.

Maybe I should mention that for several years, my closest friends were all Hasidic. I spent a Summer vacation in their yeshiva in Morris Town, New Jersey. A long story.

I explored the Devin Light Mission when Sat Guru Maharaji was 16. I applied for initiation. The Mahatma conducting the ceremony wanted to know if I was willing to cut my head off for the guru. I told him "no." He told me to go home and come back when I was ready. In my second year at City College, a pretty young woman walked up to me and asked if I would like to go to a Buddhist meeting. I looked her up and down and decided I was interested in Buddhism. It turned out to be Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism. A silly cult. I made Junior Group Chief before I dropped out. I explored the Buddhist roots of Reiki. I was initiated to Medicine Buddha, White Tara, Quan Yin and Sekhmet. I was a member of Eckenkar for a while. I came to my senses. I was in Mahihari for three years. The group lead by the Founder's daughter. There was another group lead by the chief disciple. I was trained in PanGu ShenGong. The Qi Gong is good. Then I read the book. Wow and Yikes. I took a lesson in Falun Gong. Then I read the book. Wow. My first Reiki school was the American International Reiki Association. Very cultish. They alone had the complete seven degree system. I believed them for a while. There were other things in my foolish youth. This is what comes to mind. In the Western World, there is the persistent belief that somehow, Eastern Religion is more pure. Or more spiritual. No. It's not. It's different but it's not better.

In every generation, there are people who think that they are the last generation. Be patient. Maybe they're wrong again.

There were others.

I think you have that backwards. There is some truth in the Bible. Good luck picking it out.

That is true. Meditation is an excellent practice. I participate myself. However, that is not what I was refering to. Transcendental Meditation is pushed as a secular practice. To not see the religious elements, including an initiation ceremony, for what they are requires willful blindness. I don't have an issue with Vedic religious meditation. It works and works well. People who want help for their blood preassure are getting it. However -- False advertising bothers me. Deceit bothers me. BS bothers me. TM is truly full of it.