Does Hedonism make the world a better place?

[Pete]

6 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

Maybe I lack perspective.  Maybe I lack understanding.  Let's see:

 

America has 4 percent of the world's population.

American has 20 percent of the world's covid casualties.

President Trump turned the White House into a virus hot zone.

President Trump sent a mob to lynch Congress.

 

What am I lacking that I don't see Trump's greatness?

 

Johnson is no better

[Pete]

4 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

Wearing a mask only helps "in theory" unfortunately. More and more studies are being published that show the initial WHO reaction was the right one. Wearing masks by the general public actually worsens the situation:

 

1. people are simply too stupid/lazy/whatever to use them properly (even healthcare professionals); they re-use them, they touch their faces with their filthy fingers, they use them for too long. All factors that actually help the spread of viruses and bacteria.

 

2. The use of masks in public spaces actually "help" people to "avoid" the much more important social distancing (which actually DOES help against the spread...).

 

Masks, social distancing and the vaccine is the only credible choice at present. I have worn masks every time I leave my flat. I socially distance and I will have the vaccine. I have done that for nearly a year now. If I could make a comment. More Americans would be alive now if Trump had followed his own advice and drank a bottle of bleach. At first masks where they said masks only helped a little but later research showed it helped protect a person and helped stop the virus spreading. Social distancing of at least two metres is also important. However if you have ever breathed out on a cold foggy day you will note your breath goes further than two metres. Still it is helpful. The vaccine is the best thing. It will not stop you getting it but the severity will be less. The problem is with the early return to normal is the more who catch it the more the virus has chance to mutate. Hence, I am sure there will need to be injections every year like the flu jab. Especially since the third world has been slow in getting the jab.

[Pete]

5 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

I want to throw a controversial question out there: why is it that we are all so preoccupied with Covid-19? I am not saying it isn't out there. I am also not saying it isn't a terrible way to die, it is. But if it were such a serious pandemic disease wouldn't the worlds' mortality rate have jump more than exactly 0% (in 2020 compared to 2019): https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/WLD/world/death-rate

 

PS the "note" on that page has been added recently, I am willing to discuss more recent/actual data. The question stands.

Much of the thanks has to be laid at science's door and the early warning from China. If this virus was allowed to spread freely many more would have died.

you get seriously ill. You feel like sh1t and you are in pain. Your tubes going to your lungs are inflamed and eroding and your drownIng in pus and inflammation. No not a nice way to go. Many who recover have sustained injuries to their internal organs. The age range of mortality was from three years upwards. Mostly in the elderly but not exclusive. The last time we had something so dangerous was the spanish flu in the early 1900s.  Only it killed mainly young people. Then they had no answer to it. The population took three years to gain herd immunity and thousands died. 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

Johnson is no better

 

 

They both have silly hair.      

[Pete]

Further to my answer earlier. 1% of the world population is about 78.5 + million. Highest death rate from covid was nearly 70 million in December. The figures are off set because the flu death rate was also lowered by the Covid restrictions. Hence, not much movement on the mortality figures. However, if there had been no restrictions then the mortality rate would be very much higher.. 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Pete said:

Further to my answer earlier. 1% of the world population is about 78.5 + million. Highest death rate from covid was nearly 70 million in December. The figures are off set because the flu death rate was also lowered by the Covid restrictions. Hence, not much movement on the mortality figures. However, if there had been no restrictions then the mortality rate would be very much higher.. 

 

 

I got my second dose of the Moderna vaccine on March 4th.  

 

😃

[RevBogovac]

6 hours ago, Pete said:

Masks, social distancing and the vaccine is the only credible choice at present. I have worn masks every time I leave my flat. I socially distance and I will have the vaccine. I have done that for nearly a year now. If I could make a comment. More Americans would be alive now if Trump had followed his own advice and drank a bottle of bleach. At first masks where they said masks only helped a little but later research showed it helped protect a person and helped stop the virus spreading. Social distancing of at least two metres is also important. However if you have ever breathed out on a cold foggy day you will note your breath goes further than two metres. Still it is helpful. The vaccine is the best thing. It will not stop you getting it but the severity will be less. The problem is with the early return to normal is the more who catch it the more the virus has chance to mutate. Hence, I am sure there will need to be injections every year like the flu jab. Especially since the third world has been slow in getting the jab.

 

5 hours ago, Pete said:

Much of the thanks has to be laid at science's door and the early warning from China. If this virus was allowed to spread freely many more would have died.

you get seriously ill. You feel like sh1t and you are in pain. Your tubes going to your lungs are inflamed and eroding and your drownIng in pus and inflammation. No not a nice way to go. Many who recover have sustained injuries to their internal organs. The age range of mortality was from three years upwards. Mostly in the elderly but not exclusive. The last time we had something so dangerous was the spanish flu in the early 1900s.  Only it killed mainly young people. Then they had no answer to it. The population took three years to gain herd immunity and thousands died. 

 

4 hours ago, Pete said:

Further to my answer earlier. 1% of the world population is about 78.5 + million. Highest death rate from covid was nearly 70 million in December. The figures are off set because the flu death rate was also lowered by the Covid restrictions. Hence, not much movement on the mortality figures. However, if there had been no restrictions then the mortality rate would be very much higher.. 

 

 

Your numbers, and therefore your conclusions simply aren't true.

 

1. The current global day death rate from covid-19 is less than 3 million (where do you get even close to 70 million?!?): https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

 

2. the most common age of dying from covid is over 85: https://www.heritage.org/data-visualizations/public-health/covid-19-deaths-by-age/

 

3. increase in global death rate in 2020 (compared to 2019) is exactly 0%: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/WLD/world/death-rate

 

Your conclusions are simply wrong. They seem to be based on fear instead of numbers and science. Don't get me wrong, I am not "denying" there is a virus called Covid-19. It is very real and it kills people in an awful way. What I am saying is that we are going at it the wrong way (and I actually agree with Trump that the cure is far worse than the disease; over 8.000 children are dying EVERY DAY because a bunch of wealthy old men are hiding away and destroying the world economy in their wake - talk about criminal). 

 

I am happy there is a vaccine and it should be distributed to the frail (sorry Jonathan) as fast as humanly possible. But can we please stop scare mongering and let the rest of the world carry on?

[Pete]

70,000 deaths in December worldwide. My error but the rest is so.

Edited March 9, 2021 by Pete

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

5 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

 

 

 

Your numbers, and therefore your conclusions simply aren't true.

 

1. The current global day death rate from covid-19 is less than 3 million (where do you get even close to 70 million?!?): https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

 

2. the most common age of dying from covid is over 85: https://www.heritage.org/data-visualizations/public-health/covid-19-deaths-by-age/

 

3. increase in global death rate in 2020 (compared to 2019) is exactly 0%: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/WLD/world/death-rate

 

Your conclusions are simply wrong. They seem to be based on fear instead of numbers and science. Don't get me wrong, I am not "denying" there is a virus called Covid-19. It is very real and it kills people in an awful way. What I am saying is that we are going at it the wrong way (and I actually agree with Trump that the cure is far worse than the disease; over 8.000 children are dying EVERY DAY because a bunch of wealthy old men are hiding away and destroying the world economy in their wake - talk about criminal). 

 

I am happy there is a vaccine and it should be distributed to the frail (sorry Jonathan) as fast as humanly possible. But can we please stop scare mongering and let the rest of the world carry on?

 

 

I am 67.  I turn 68 on March 13th.  "The Dude abides."

 

 

[RevBogovac]

9 hours ago, Pete said:

70,000 deaths in December worldwide. My error but the rest is so.

 

No, the rest isn't "so" either... If we look at the numbers - again - we see that countries that had a lot (compared to other countries that enforced stricter rules) of deaths in the first wave had significantly less deaths (again, compared to those other countries) in the second and third wave.

 

This just goes to show that the virus "finishes off" people (yes, some very young - but obviously "preconditioned" - people) who are on the "verge" of dying. The death covid-19 brings is an awful one and I am very happy we have gotten better at medicating it and the vaccine seems to be successful but this disease simply isn't proportional to all the measures. 

 

The mortality rate is also very low (0.01%). If we would have had a pandemic with the mortality rate of a black plague or ebola we would have been in big trouble. But - again - the "cure" (that we have chosen to use) is worse than the disease (actually putting 100's off millions of people at risk of starvation - but "who cares", right? those are just third world countries, right? It is important white, old, overweight men [the most deaths of Covid-19] stay safe, right?).

 

I agree with you 100%; it will be the same as with the flu: a yearly/seasonly "jab" that has been "updated" to the latest mutations. And for the rest? Can we please return to life as normal?

 

What would actually help a lot is if we would learn to STAY AT HOME when we are ill. I don't know about you, but I have noticed - quite often - in my professional life that people come to work coughing and sneezing. They spread all kind of diseases (how many deaths do you think that has caused). But I am afraid (that just like with the abuse of masks) after the vaccines get "normal" people will - again - just act "normal" and come to work ill (spreading diseases). Unfortunately. 

 

[RevBogovac]

6 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

I am 67.  I turn 68 on March 13th.  "The Dude abides."

 

 

 

Deo volente (pun intended).

 

And a nice bridge back on topic: it is nice to see you are doing your best to enjoy this physical world of ours as long and as healthy as you can. Bringing joy to others in the mean time! What more can we wish for...?

 

 

 

[Pete]

Stay at home when ill? The virus has up to a 10 days incubation period in which a person maybe symptom less but still able to spread it to others.

if people would only follow the rules then maybe less people would die and many of my professional colleagues would still be alive and not so much under strain. I do not care whether you think the mask is good or bad but our research says it helps. I will follow that. Personally I am sick of armchair and facebook experts sounding off about something they know little about. Why do people wear masks in operating theatres? So they do not spread bugs to the patient. It also helps prevent you catching stuff. Every Nurse and Doctor wears a mask with infected patients. However, I accept that on its own that is not everything. Distancing, vaccinations, perhaps vit D, changing clothes if you have been near infection risks, and good hygiene are the approach taken in all care settings. I have no wish to debate this further. I was paid to do this sort of stuff. 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

Stay at home when ill? The virus has up to a 10 days incubation period in which a person maybe symptom less but still able to spread it to others.

if people would only follow the rules then maybe less people would die and many of my professional colleagues would still be alive and not so much under strain. I do not care whether you think the mask is good or bad but our research says it helps. I will follow that. Personally I am sick of armchair and facebook experts sounding off about something they know little about. Why do people wear masks in operating theatres? So they do not spread bugs to the patient. It also helps prevent you catching stuff. Every Nurse and Doctor wears a mask with infected patients. However, I accept that on its own that is not everything. Distancing, vaccinations, perhaps vit D, changing clothes if you have been near infection risks, and good hygiene are the approach taken in all care settings. I have no wish to debate this further. I was paid to do this sort of stuff. 

 

 

The vaccines are here.  Be strong a bit longer.  Don't die.  The vaccines are here.

 

 

 

[RevBogovac]

6 hours ago, Pete said:

Stay at home when ill? The virus has up to a 10 days incubation period in which a person maybe symptom less but still able to spread it to others.

if people would only follow the rules then maybe less people would die and many of my professional colleagues would still be alive and not so much under strain. I do not care whether you think the mask is good or bad but our research says it helps. I will follow that. Personally I am sick of armchair and facebook experts sounding off about something they know little about. Why do people wear masks in operating theatres? So they do not spread bugs to the patient. It also helps prevent you catching stuff. Every Nurse and Doctor wears a mask with infected patients. However, I accept that on its own that is not everything. Distancing, vaccinations, perhaps vit D, changing clothes if you have been near infection risks, and good hygiene are the approach taken in all care settings. I have no wish to debate this further. I was paid to do this sort of stuff. 

 

Yes, stay at home when you're ill. That is not a specific Covid-19 advice, but I find it strange that we find it socially acceptable that ill people move around spreading germs... call me crazy.

 

Yes, professionals use masks in operating theatres. Masks work, I never said they didn't. But even those professionals do not USE them the right way all the time. Let alone laymen on the street. Then they not only stop working but start being counterproductive. I know you - and a lot of pleople - "do not care", but I do care what people who actually know a thing or two about it (like the WHO) are saying. And their message was clear: masks in the public space are counterproductive (see above for the reasoning, I don't care repeating).

 

I am still paid "to do this sort of stuff".

[RevBogovac]

5 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

The vaccines are here.  Be strong a bit longer.  Don't die.  The vaccines are here.

 

 

 

Yes, let's hope we can get as fast and safe as possible to the state Pete already described: periodic updated jabs (and "business as usual")...

 

[Pete]

WHO advised a three layer mask. I think that is good advice  However, many people do not know how to wear them. They are supposed to cover the mouth and nose and plastic visors are only really useful if you are wearing a mask under it. The numbers I see wearing a mask and not covering their nose is incredible. The nose is just as capable of catching it and spreading it as the mouth.

[RevBogovac]

5 hours ago, Pete said:

WHO advised a three layer mask. I think that is good advice  However, many people do not know how to wear them. They are supposed to cover the mouth and nose and plastic visors are only really useful if you are wearing a mask under it. The numbers I see wearing a mask and not covering their nose is incredible. The nose is just as capable of catching it and spreading it as the mouth.

 

Yes, WHO advises a three layer mask as a "technical" measure (compare that to the cloth masks people use weeks on end). But read up on their advice regarding the use of a mask by the general public (I paraphrase: "the decision to enforce the general public to wear masks was apolitical one, not a scientific one). 

 

But we can let this rest anyway. I think overall we agree (a periodic jab will prove to be the solution). I just don't think it is as black and white like you portrayed it to be (that not wearing a mask is criminal). We have had that discussion/nuance enough as far as I am concerned. You do see how this comes back to hedonism though; do you like to enjoy your life as long and healthy as possible, please use your brain and make wise decisions... 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

6 minutes ago, RevBogovac said:

 

Yes, WHO advises a three layer mask as a "technical" measure (compare that to the cloth masks people use weeks on end). But read up on their advice regarding the use of a mask by the general public (I paraphrase: "the decision to enforce the general public to wear masks was apolitical one, not a scientific one). 

 

But we can let this rest anyway. I think overall we agree (a periodic jab will prove to be the solution). I just don't think it is as black and white like you portrayed it to be (that not wearing a mask is criminal). We have had that discussion/nuance enough as far as I am concerned. You do see how this comes back to hedonism though; do you like to enjoy your life as long and healthy as possible, please use your brain and make wise decisions... 

 

 

 

 

Within the general population, there are sets of behavior which seem to be "clumping'.  By "clumping", I mean like a blood clot, only worse.

 

1.  religiously extreme.  Not just extreme Christians.  Also extreme Jews and Muslims.

2.  political extremists.  Frequently the same people in the first group.

3.  anti-vaxers.  Frequently religious and political extremists.  Generally on the far right.

4.  Oblivious to social distancing

5.  insistent on their personal "rights" to the point of madness.

6.  given to conspiracy theory

 

Say what you will about painting with too broad a brush.  The people in each group tend to be the same people in all the other groups.

 

I like to think that this is Nature's way of cleaning the gene pool.  When everybody else is vaxed, these groups will continue doing their thing.  I won't miss them.

 

 

 

 

 

[RevBogovac]

On 3/12/2021 at 9:07 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

Within the general population, there are sets of behavior which seem to be "clumping'.  By "clumping", I mean like a blood clot, only worse.

 

1.  religiously extreme.  Not just extreme Christians.  Also extreme Jews and Muslims.

2.  political extremists.  Frequently the same people in the first group.

3.  anti-vaxers.  Frequently religious and political extremists.  Generally on the far right.

4.  Oblivious to social distancing

5.  insistent on their personal "rights" to the point of madness.

6.  given to conspiracy theory

 

Say what you will about painting with too broad a brush.  The people in each group tend to be the same people in all the other groups.

 

I like to think that this is Nature's way of cleaning the gene pool.  When everybody else is vaxed, these groups will continue doing their thing.  I won't miss them.

 

 

 

Yes, the "golden mean" seems lost to them... 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

Yes, the "golden mean" seems lost to them... 

 

 

 

 

 

Don't confuse the "golden mean" with the "Golden Rule".

 

The people with the Gold make the rules.