Evidence

[Pete]

I am sorry but if Dan was not so persistent I would dismiss it as boring dribble. He continues to present none evidence and belief as this were facts. I would say Dan is not only rigid but also very narrow minded. He has nothing to offer except his book of none evidence and continues to not connect with the views of others and sees pride in this. I would say remove the bible and apologetic sites and he would be significantly lost in things to say. It does not take intelligence to quote scripture. It does if you have to stand with others on your own mental faculties.

Sorry but there it is for me and my view on Dan.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Pete

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

16 minutes ago, Pete said:

I am sorry but if Dan was not so persistent I would dismiss it as boring dribble. He continues to present none evidence and belief as this were facts. I would say Dan is not only rigid but also very narrow minded. He has nothing to offer except his book of none evidence and continues to not connect with the views of others and sees pride in this. I would say remove the bible and apologetic sites and he would be significantly lost in things to say. It does not take intelligence to quote scripture. It does if you have to stand with others on your own mental faculties.

Sorry but there it is for me and my view on Dan.

 

 

Now, now.  Cherry picking is it's own skill set.     

 

 

[Dan56]

12 hours ago, Key said:

One showing only one side of a coin, someone is bound to want to see the other side of it, eventually. Basically, this is what you proffered when stating there are "no downsides". Someone is bound to counter that proclamation. Which is also expected when shared in a forum of open discussion.

 

True.... I'm not surprised that a nonbeliever would take issue with "no downside" to Christianity, but it shouldn't have been surprising that I'd explain why its not considered a downside to believers.

 

11 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

• This doctrine that God is not all knowing -- that God can be surprised.   
• Dan also keeps insisting that Noah's Flood was a local event.  (All the animal "kinds" of the world, had to be saved from extinction.  Over a local disaster.)  
• That the Lake of Fire results in permanent extinction.  Not the eternal torment that Christianity has preached for 2,000 years.   

Dan is not preaching standard doctrine.  I don't know if he's making this crap up as he goes.  It looks like it.  To me, it looks like heresy.  Not the standard Evangelical teaching.

 

 

All true... I never professed to fall in-line with traditional interpretations. I know you don't understand, but God knowing all things does not mean that all things known are set in stone. If God were unable to change whats foreknown, He could not be all powerful.. Not all animals of the world had to be saved in the flood, only the animals indigenous to the area being flooded. Its why you only see kangaroos in Australia. And Jesus made it abundantly clear that you either go on to eternal life or you perish, there's no eternal torture chamber, what goes into the Lake of Fire is permanently destroyed. If being heretical is not complying with Catholic doctrine, then I'm proud to be so. 

 

11 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

If I said Atheism offers no hope, no inner peace, is a waste of time, is the cowards choice, and leads to no where, you would probably consider my perspective of atheism to be disparaging.

 

See how the ball rolls both ways? 

 

That has always been your opinion, and you have not been shy about stating it.

 

 

True, but my point was that I wasn't insisting that Atheist needed to take up my faith. And my second point was that your opinion of Christianity has always been disparaging. No problem, its normal to have a negative perspective of something that you find to be a bunch of baloney.

[Dan56]

9 hours ago, Pete said:

I am sorry but if Dan was not so persistent I would dismiss it as boring dribble. He continues to present none evidence and belief as this were facts. I would say Dan is not only rigid but also very narrow minded. He has nothing to offer except his book of none evidence and continues to not connect with the views of others and sees pride in this. I would say remove the bible and apologetic sites and he would be significantly lost in things to say. It does not take intelligence to quote scripture. It does if you have to stand with others on your own mental faculties.

Sorry but there it is for me and my view on Dan.

 

Someone who talks about something you don't believe could be nothing but excessively boring. I'm not narrow minded, just convicted to one truth, it only seems rigid to those who are still looking for answers. If you ever find out your purpose, the meaning of life, or how you got here, let me know. And when you have this epiphany,  please present verifiable evidence to prove it. I'd be agnostic too if the bible didn't exist, so it should be understandable why I quote a book that I've chosen to believe. And yes, remove the bible and I'd have to discuss what agnostics have discovered, which is essentially; 'I believe in nothing divine, I know nothing of spirituality, and I don't care'. Not exactly a conversation limited to geniuses. And I hate to be redundant, but until an Atheist can explain the fulfillment of the 22nd Psalm and dozens of other prophesies, the burden of proof falls on those who dismiss it as folly. There's evidence, you just won't accept anything you can't see, hear, or touch, but unfortunately, spiritual things are not discerned by physical observation alone. 

 

[Pete]

I am not looking for meaning or religion.  You play around with the bible as you want but I am not interested.  Life's meaning for me is what I make of it. I am not trying to impose religion upon it. That is your thing.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

5 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Someone who talks about something you don't believe could be nothing but excessively boring. I'm not narrow minded, just convicted to one truth, it only seems rigid to those who are still looking for answers. If you ever find out your purpose, the meaning of life, or how you got here, let me know. And when you have this epiphany,  please present verifiable evidence to prove it. I'd be agnostic too if the bible didn't exist, so it should be understandable why I quote a book that I've chosen to believe. And yes, remove the bible and I'd have to discuss what agnostics have discovered, which is essentially; 'I believe in nothing divine, I know nothing of spirituality, and I don't care'. Not exactly a conversation limited to geniuses. And I hate to be redundant, but until an Atheist can explain the fulfillment of the 22nd Psalm and dozens of other prophesies, the burden of proof falls on those who dismiss it as folly. There's evidence, you just won't accept anything you can't see, hear, or touch, but unfortunately, spiritual things are not discerned by physical observation alone. 

 

 

 

I am not going to argue Scripture, with you.  As you said.  "Folly".  That is your rabbit hole.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

46 minutes ago, Pete said:

I am not looking for meaning or religion.  You play around with the bible as you want but I am not interested.  Life's meaning for me is what I make of it. I am not trying to impose religion upon it. That is your thing.

 

 

Yes.          

 

 

[Key]

10 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

True.... I'm not surprised that a nonbeliever would take issue with "no downside" to Christianity, but it shouldn't have been surprising that I'd explain why its not considered a downside to believers.

But said this to a non-believer as if it were meaning enough to believe. This in itself is a gauntlet in the face. A challenge to show the opposite is just as true. And it was taken up in like fashion. For you to be surprised also shows you lacked their perspective, as well.

[Key]

10 hours ago, Dan56 said:

All true... I never professed to fall in-line with traditional interpretations. I know you don't understand, but God knowing all things does not mean that all things known are set in stone. If God were unable to change whats foreknown, He could not be all powerful.. Not all animals of the world had to be saved in the flood, only the animals indigenous to the area being flooded. Its why you only see kangaroos in Australia. And Jesus made it abundantly clear that you either go on to eternal life or you perish, there's no eternal torture chamber, what goes into the Lake of Fire is permanently destroyed. If being heretical is not complying with Catholic doctrine, then I'm proud to be so. 

If God is, as He says, the Alpha and the Omega. (The beginning and the end.) Then He is a state of an infinity loop. Meaning He does know everything. Every action and result. So, in a virtual sense, all things are set in stone.

And, as He is supposed to be all powerful, as nothing is supposed to be impossible with Him, He could intervene and change results He does not desire. Alas, as He is in an infinity loop, for Him nothing changes from His perspective, whereas for us everything does if He demonstrates His power. Which begs the question, "why should he care?"

Edited December 28, 2019 by Key
more thought

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

5 hours ago, Key said:

But said this to a non-believer as if it were meaning enough to believe. This in itself is a gauntlet in the face. A challenge to show the opposite is just as true. And it was taken up in like fashion. For you to be surprised also shows you lacked their perspective, as well.

 

 

Yes.  Now Dan wants to argue Scripture.  Been there.  Done that.  All very tedious and useless.  You know the game.  No matter what I say -- I lack understanding.  Or something is out of context.  Or the translation is defective.  Or I lack the Spirit.  Or it's explained away by more Scripture -- which sure looks like a blatant contradiction.  It's a true exercise in futility.  Worse, Dan always makes the final pronouncement.  I hate God.  Or the Bible.  Or I have no spiritual awareness. I believe in nothing........

 

I've been in that swamp too many times.  I'm not going back.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

5 hours ago, Key said:

If God is, as He says, the Alpha and the Omega. (The beginning and the end.) Then He is a state of an infinity loop. Meaning He does know everything. Every action and result. So, in a virtual sense, all things are set in stone.

And, as He is supposed to be all powerful, as nothing is supposed to be impossible with Him, He could intervene and change results He does not desire. Alas, as He is in an infinity loop, for Him nothing changes from His perspective, whereas for us everything does if He demonstrates His power. Which begs the question, "why should he care?"

 

 

God, the All Knowing, would know in advance, every change that God will ever make.  That means there's no change.  Worse, the All Knowing, would know, in advance, every thought that God will ever have.  That means that God has no free will.

 

Clearly, the people who created this doctrine of All Knowing, had not thought it through.

 

 

 

 

 

[Dan56]

20 hours ago, Pete said:

I am not looking for meaning or religion.  You play around with the bible as you want but I am not interested.  Life's meaning for me is what I make of it. I am not trying to impose religion upon it. That is your thing.

 

Yes, that was the whole point of my last post. I'm fully cognizant that your not looking for anything meaningful and aren't interested in anything beyond the here & now. That is your thing.

 

15 hours ago, Key said:

If God is, as He says, the Alpha and the Omega. (The beginning and the end.) Then He is a state of an infinity loop. Meaning He does know everything. Every action and result. So, in a virtual sense, all things are set in stone.

And, as He is supposed to be all powerful, as nothing is supposed to be impossible with Him, He could intervene and change results He does not desire. Alas, as He is in an infinity loop, for Him nothing changes from His perspective, whereas for us everything does if He demonstrates His power. Which begs the question, "why should he care?"

 

God is infinite, but there's no definitive loop. You may be over thinking it. "Free will" and "Set in Stone" don't mix. Being made in the image of God, we make choices, we aren't programmed robots. For example; sin = death, but God intervened, so sin can be erased, therefore what would have been no longer needs to be. God chose not to control us, so our independent decisions are unknown, God is not omniscient in that respect. God doesn't want anyone to perish (2 Peter 3:9), but many will perish, God is not omnipotent in that respect. God knows the beginning from the end because He is the beginning and He will determine the end, but every choice we make in the interim isn't determined or known beforehand.

 

9 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

I have no spiritual awareness. I believe in nothing........

 

 

True, you've plainly acknowledged that you believe in nothing spiritual.... Its a fact, not an argument... Its just kind of sad for me to see someone content with that, seems like a bleak outlook, but I reckon its your choice.  

[Pete]

Taken from each others perspective. We both feel that the other believes in nothing. I personally dont believe in religion but I dont believe in nothing. I believe in doing my best for humanity. You may dress your beliefs up in a god or religion but your beliefs are just beliefs founded on nothing of substance.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

4 hours ago, Pete said:

Taken from each others perspective. We both feel that the other believes in nothing. I personally dont believe in religion but I dont believe in nothing. I believe in doing my best for humanity. You may dress your beliefs up in a god or religion but your beliefs are just beliefs founded on nothing of substance.

 

 

 

This is good.  I think we have similar values.  Values is the word.  Not beliefs.  IMO

 

We value love, friendship, kindness, honor, ethics, wisdom, doing what's right, etc.  These are the things that we find meaningful.  Belief?  Not so much.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Dan56]

7 hours ago, Pete said:

Taken from each others perspective. We both feel that the other believes in nothing. I personally dont believe in religion but I dont believe in nothing. I believe in doing my best for humanity. You may dress your beliefs up in a god or religion but your beliefs are just beliefs founded on nothing of substance.

 

2 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

We value love, friendship, kindness, honor, ethics, wisdom, doing what's right, etc.  These are the things that we find meaningful.  Belief?  Not so much.

 

Whatever we believe is not nothing, whether its spiritual or physical. One is simply everlasting while the other is temporary. Jesus encompassed all of the things you value (love, friendship, kindness, honor, ethics, wisdom, doing what's right). So I read these things as saying that each of you endorse all the values Jesus espoused and demonstrated, but you disavow & repudiate Christ himself. It sounds illogical to embrace your values while refusing to endorse One who personified them to perfection. Be that as it is, remove the spiritual element and your essentially Empiricist, who embrace Nihilism. jmo

Edited December 29, 2019 by Dan56

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

9 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

 

Whatever we believe is not nothing, whether its spiritual or physical. One is simply everlasting while the other is temporary. Jesus encompassed all of the things you value (love, friendship, kindness, honor, ethics, wisdom, doing what's right). So I read these things as saying that each of you endorse all the values Jesus espoused and demonstrated, but you disavow & repudiate Christ himself. It sounds illogical to embrace your values while refusing to endorse One who personified them to perfection. Be that as it is, remove the spiritual element and your essentially Empiricist, who embrace Nihilism. jmo

 

 

You do not hear anything, except what you want to hear.  That is why Atheist voices confuse you.  When you learn how to listen, you will hear us.

 

 

 

[Key]

11 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

God is infinite, but there's no definitive loop. You may be over thinking it. "Free will" and "Set in Stone" don't mix. Being made in the image of God, we make choices, we aren't programmed robots. For example; sin = death, but God intervened, so sin can be erased, therefore what would have been no longer needs to be. God chose not to control us, so our independent decisions are unknown, God is not omniscient in that respect. God doesn't want anyone to perish (2 Peter 3:9), but many will perish, God is not omnipotent in that respect. God knows the beginning from the end because He is the beginning and He will determine the end, but every choice we make in the interim isn't determined or known beforehand.

 

But there is. He knows all outcomes, regardless of any interventions on His part. Yes, we make decisions, but He knows before, during and after what they may be and how they result. He exists through all time, afterall. The "free will" is ours, or at least the illusion of it. Our decisions are unknown only to us until we make them.

To say our decisions are unknown to God, is to say He is truly not all knowing. Deductive reasoning does not make this statement as "overthinking it".

If He truly does not want anyone to perish, as an all powerful God, no one would.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Key said:

But there is. He knows all outcomes, regardless of any interventions on His part. Yes, we make decisions, but He knows before, during and after what they may be and how they result. He exists through all time, afterall. The "free will" is ours, or at least the illusion of it. Our decisions are unknown only to us until we make them.

To say our decisions are unknown to God, is to say He is truly not all knowing. Deductive reasoning does not make this statement as "overthinking it".

If He truly does not want anyone to perish, as an all powerful God, no one would.

 

 

You are expecting Dan, to engage in non-dogmatic thought, about God.    

 

I do it also.  We live in hope.     

 

 

 

 

Edited December 30, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Dan56]

6 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

You do not hear anything, except what you want to hear.  That is why Atheist voices confuse you.  When you learn how to listen, you will hear us.

 

You do not hear anything, except what you want to hear.  That is why Christian voices confuse you.  When you learn how to listen, you will hear us.

 

2 hours ago, Key said:

But there is. He knows all outcomes, regardless of any interventions on His part. Yes, we make decisions, but He knows before, during and after what they may be and how they result. He exists through all time, afterall. The "free will" is ours, or at least the illusion of it. Our decisions are unknown only to us until we make them.

To say our decisions are unknown to God, is to say He is truly not all knowing. Deductive reasoning does not make this statement as "overthinking it".

If He truly does not want anyone to perish, as an all powerful God, no one would.

 

We'll just have to disagree, I don't believe God knows our future decisions. If God already knew, then this whole experiment in the flesh would be an exercise in futility. You don't test people if you already know the result, and there's certainly no need to delay judgement if the verdict is already known. I was trying to avoid adding scripture to substantiate my thoughts since Pete is so offended by the bible, but my opinion is based on the many instances where God had no foreknowledge of what people would do.. So stop reading here if your bored with biblical references that substantiate my position, its the dogma Jonathan warned you about 

 

Several times in Scripture God Himself said of certain events that they 'did not come into his mind' (Jeremiah 19:5; 32:35; 44:21). God did not know beforehand that men would become so wicked, it repented Him that He had made man and grieved Him at His heart (Gen. 6:5-7), God did not know whether it would take one or two or three signs to make Israel believe Him (Ex.4:1-12); or whether testing Israel would cause them to obey Him or not (Deut. 8:2, 16). God did not know that Israel would backslide as far as it did (Deut. 32:19-29; Isa. 59:15-19).

God searches the hearts to find whom He can bless (2 Chr. 16:9). He discovers deep things (Job. 12:22); He tries the hearts and reins of men so that He may know them (Ps. 7:9; 44:21; 139:1-6, 23-24; Jer. 17:10; 1 Chr. 28:9; Rom.8:27; 1 Cor. 2;10; Rev. 2:23), proving all men for the same reason (Ps. 17:3; 66:10; 81:7).

The 1,522 "if's" and the many hundreds of conditional requirements of God throughout Scripture are sufficient proof that God does not cause all acts and events by His own decrees, and are sufficient proof that He changes His mind and His own dealings with men as they conform or refuse to conform to His will.

God goes Himself, or He sends messengers throughout the whole of His vast creations to find out for Him what He wants to know, the same as the head of any other organization would be likely to do, so that plans may be made and actions can be taken accordingly. Examples of such agency constantly reporting to God can be found in all these passages (Gen. 18:21-22; Dan. 10:13-21; 11:1; 12:1; Zech. 1:7-11; 6:1-8; Matt. 18:10-11; Heb. 1:14; 2:2; Rev. 1:1; 7:1-3; 8:2-13; 9:1; 14:6-20; 15:1-8; 16:1-21; 18:21; 22:6, 8-9, 16).

The 6,468 commands in the Bible regulating man as to his part in the eternal plan of God, and setting forth his responsibility to God and man, the 1,260 promises and blessings, rewards or loss of rewards, the hundreds of warnings, curses, blessings and dealings of God on the basis of conformity to His will.

Such facts and many others make it clear that God does not know from all eternity what any one man will do, much less what different types and dispositions of men will do under various circumstances that are not yet present to deal with.

There is not one statement of Scripture in the entire Bible saying God knows or even would like to know all acts and particular events of all the vast creations of free moral agents from all eternity past; or that He has fixed decrees choosing and predestinating all thoughts, acts, and deeds of free wills from all eternity past to all eternity future.

God's plan will not fail and it is known from the beginning to the end and what He plans to bring to pass on Earth He has power to do, but concerning the free moral actions of free moral agents, He does not know from all eternity what they will do before they are in existence and are here to have a part in His plan. He does not know which ones will be saved and which ones will be lost. He has made a plan for all to be saved alike and all who conform to His plan are blessed with the predestined blessings. Those who willfully rebel will be cursed with the predestined punishments according to the plan. It is the plan that is known from beginning to the end, not the individual conformity to it by free moral agents. It is left up to each person to choose His own destiny. God wills all men to be saved but if man does not choose to be saved that is his responsibility (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; John 3:16; Rev. 22:17).

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

10 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

You do not hear anything, except what you want to hear.

1.   That is why Christian voices confuse you.  When you learn how to listen, you will hear us.

 

 

We'll just have to disagree, I don't believe God knows our future decisions.

2.  If God already knew, then this whole experiment in the flesh would be an exercise in futility. You don't test people if you already know the result, and there's certainly no need to delay judgement if the verdict is already known. I was trying to avoid adding scripture to substantiate my thoughts

 

3.  since Pete is so offended by the bible, but my opinion is based on the many instances where God had no foreknowledge of what people would do.. So stop reading here if your bored with biblical references that substantiate my position, its the dogma Jonathan warned you about 

 

4.  Several times in Scripture God Himself said of certain events that they 'did not come into his mind' (Jeremiah 19:5; 32:35; 44:21). God did not know beforehand that men would become so wicked, it repented Him that He had made man and grieved Him at His heart (Gen. 6:5-7), God did not know whether it would take one or two or three signs to make Israel believe Him (Ex.4:1-12); or whether testing Israel would cause them to obey Him or not (Deut. 8:2, 16). God did not know that Israel would backslide as far as it did (Deut. 32:19-29; Isa. 59:15-19).

God searches the hearts to find whom He can bless (2 Chr. 16:9). He discovers deep things (Job. 12:22); He tries the hearts and reins of men so that He may know them (Ps. 7:9; 44:21; 139:1-6, 23-24; Jer. 17:10; 1 Chr. 28:9; Rom.8:27; 1 Cor. 2;10; Rev. 2:23), proving all men for the same reason (Ps. 17:3; 66:10; 81:7).

The 1,522 "if's" and the many hundreds of conditional requirements of God throughout Scripture are sufficient proof that God does not cause all acts and events by His own decrees, and are sufficient proof that He changes His mind and His own dealings with men as they conform or refuse to conform to His will.

God goes Himself, or He sends messengers throughout the whole of His vast creations to find out for Him what He wants to know, the same as the head of any other organization would be likely to do, so that plans may be made and actions can be taken accordingly. Examples of such agency constantly reporting to God can be found in all these passages (Gen. 18:21-22; Dan. 10:13-21; 11:1; 12:1; Zech. 1:7-11; 6:1-8; Matt. 18:10-11; Heb. 1:14; 2:2; Rev. 1:1; 7:1-3; 8:2-13; 9:1; 14:6-20; 15:1-8; 16:1-21; 18:21; 22:6, 8-9, 16).

The 6,468 commands in the Bible regulating man as to his part in the eternal plan of God, and setting forth his responsibility to God and man, the 1,260 promises and blessings, rewards or loss of rewards, the hundreds of warnings, curses, blessings and dealings of God on the basis of conformity to His will.

5.  Such facts and many others make it clear that God does not know from all eternity what any one man will do, much less what different types and dispositions of men will do under various circumstances that are not yet present to deal with.

There is not one statement of Scripture in the entire Bible saying God knows or even would like to know all acts and particular events of all the vast creations of free moral agents from all eternity past; or that He has fixed decrees choosing and predestinating all thoughts, acts, and deeds of free wills from all eternity past to all eternity future.

6.  God's plan will not fail and it is known from the beginning to the end and what He plans to bring to pass on Earth He has power to do, but concerning the free moral actions of free moral agents, He does not know from all eternity what they will do before they are in existence and are here to have a part in His plan. He does not know which ones will be saved and which ones will be lost. He has made a plan for all to be saved alike and all who conform to His plan are blessed with the predestined blessings. Those who willfully rebel will be cursed with the predestined punishments according to the plan. It is the plan that is known from beginning to the end, not the individual conformity to it by free moral agents. It is left up to each person to choose His own destiny. God wills all men to be saved but if man does not choose to be saved that is his responsibility (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; John 3:16; Rev. 22:17).

 

 

 

 

1.  All my life, Christians have been preaching at me.  I have heard.  Why do you suppose I never joined up?     

 

2.  Yes.    

 

3.  Pete is not offended by the Bible.  Pete is offended by your use of the Bible.    

 

4.  Pete and I are both aware of the many contradictions in Scripture.  There is no need to assemble them for us.     

 

5.  Yes.  More of God not knowing.  

 

6.  Back to the perfect plan.  I read the Book.  They all fail.