Evidence

[Key]

12 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Its not a contradiction, life has only been found to exist on one planet. As far as the microbes on Mars, I don't personally believe it. 

https://www.space.com/33690-allen-hills-mars-meteorite-alien-life-20-years.html

 

This article is more compelling than that one. But you may still doubt it.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/15/us/nasa-life-on-mars-intl-hnk-scli/index.html

[Key]

Or this one:

https://www.airspacemag.com/daily-planet/debate-over-whether-weve-already-found-life-mars-continued-180973395/

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Key said:

Or this one:

https://www.airspacemag.com/daily-planet/debate-over-whether-weve-already-found-life-mars-continued-180973395/

 

 

 

Let us speak plainly.  Dan is a Creationist.  Dan is not interested in Science.  Dan is concerned with Genesis.  If life shows up on Mars -- even extinct microbial life -- it casts doubt on the need for Special Creation.  Life arising on Mars, means that life could arise here.  Without God.  Remember.  For Dan, it's all about his religion.  You or I, would say that we doubt scientific findings.  Dan said that he doesn't believe them.  This nuance is beyond Dan.  It's not beyond your understanding.  Dan is afraid.

 

Allow me to connect the dots.

 

If life can arise without God, the story of Adam and Eve falls into doubt.  After all, Adam shows up in the sixth day of this account.  So does Eve.

 

Without a literal,  historic, Adam and Eve, there is no Fall.  No Original sin.  

 

Without Original Sin, there is nothing to be Saved from.  No need for a Savior.  No need  for the sacrifice of the Christ.  No need to be washed in the Blood of the Lamb.

 

Now then.  Dan.  This is for you.  There is nothing, anywhere in the Bible -- that states that God did not create life elsewhere in the Cosmos.  From the standpoint of your faith -- the Universe could be full of life that God created.  The Bible is simply silent on that point.

 

C. S. Lewis, the great Protestant theologian and apologist, had much to say on this topic.  Lewis put forth the opinion, that if there are other beings in the Cosmos -- that they would not have inherited the sin of Adam and Eve.  Lewis further suggests, that the vast space between solar systems, could be God's spiritual quarantine.  In this manner, the fallen worlds would not be able to contaminate the worlds where no Fall had taken place.  Lewis further suggests, that each fallen world could have it's own separate plan for salvation.

 

So relax.  Even in Genesis, the stars are called -- the "Host of Heaven".  You have nothing to fear from possible remnants of life on Mars.  Or elsewhere.  Your religion is not so fragile as you seem to think.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Dan56]

21 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

Of course you don't. It doesn't fit your "reality".

 

18 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Belief is not relevant.    

 

Well, the shoe is certainly on the other foot now... As you guys always say, "I'm afraid I'm going to need some objective evidence"... All you have is a belief, with no verifiable facts. Until you have some definitive proof of life elsewhere, all you have is conjecture and faith in an unsubstantiated myth.. It seems strange the an Intelligent Designer is beyond your comprehension, but little green men from Mars is a distinct possibility that your eager to endorse.. And you think I'm gullible? 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

13 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

 

Well, the shoe is certainly on the other foot now... As you guys always say, "I'm afraid I'm going to need some objective evidence"... All you have is a belief, with no verifiable facts. Until you have some definitive proof of life elsewhere, all you have is conjecture and faith in an unsubstantiated myth.. It seems strange the an Intelligent Designer is beyond your comprehension, but little green men from Mars is a distinct possibility that your eager to endorse.. And you think I'm gullible? 

 

 

The possibility of ancient life on Mars is interesting.  Note the word.  Interesting.  I have not wrapped my life around it.  It's not my religion.  I'm waiting for further developments.  This has nothing to do with faith.

 

An Intelligent Designer is not beyond my comprehension.  I understand the idea.  I find the idea simplistic and silly.

 

Is it possible that you can't distinguish between microbial life and "little green men"?  Maybe such a distinction is beyond your capacity.  This distinction is worth making, even if you don't understand the difference.  

 

Yes.  I do think that you're gullible.  You did ask.  The investigation, into the possibility, of life on Mars is just that.  An investigation.  You really can't tell the difference, between an investigation and religion?  Seriously?  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Pete]

We can hold out the possibility that life may exist elsewhere in the universe. No one is confirming that until we know. That is being open minded. Dan you said that there is no life elsewhere. How would you know that. We talk about a possibility and you talk in confirmation.  It is for that reason  that it is you needing to prove that statement. Even if I believe I believed in creation one needs answer why there is at least 13 billion light years of known space just for this speck of cosmic dust. It just feels ludicrous. 

Edited December 13, 2019 by Pete

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Pete said:

We can hold out the possibility that life may exist elsewhere in the universe. No one is confirming that until we know. That is being open minded. Dan you said that there is no life elsewhere. How would you know that. We talk about a possibility and you talk in confirmation.  It is for that reason  that it is you needing to prove that statement. Even if I believe I believed in creation one needs answer why there is at least 13 billion light years of known space just for this speck of cosmic dust. It just feels ludicrous. 

 

 

Tell a Fundamentalist that there is no God.  what happens next?  The standard challenge.  How do you know?  Did you search the entire Universe for God?  It's the usual double standard.  I'm used to it.  

 

 

 

[Dan56]

10 hours ago, Pete said:

We can hold out the possibility that life may exist elsewhere in the universe. No one is confirming that until we know. That is being open minded. Dan you said that there is no life elsewhere. How would you know that. We talk about a possibility and you talk in confirmation.  It is for that reason  that it is you needing to prove that statement. Even if I believe I believed in creation one needs answer why there is at least 13 billion light years of known space just for this speck of cosmic dust. It just feels ludicrous. 

 

We can also hold out the possibility that God exist. That is being open minded...And that was my simple point.

 

8 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Tell a Fundamentalist that there is no God.  what happens next?  The standard challenge.  How do you know?  Did you search the entire Universe for God?  It's the usual double standard.  I'm used to it.

 

The double standard is when Atheist reject the existence of God due to a lack of evidence, while simultaneously accepting without any evidence that there could be life on other planets.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

32 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

We can also hold out the possibility that God exist. That is being open minded...And that was my simple point.

 

 

The double standard is when Atheist reject the existence of God due to a lack of evidence, while simultaneously accepting without any evidence that there could be life on other planets.

 

 

I have to keep reminding myself that when you say God -- you mean your God.

 

Alright then.  Does God exist?  I don't know.  I don't care.  God might exist.  God might not exist. I don't know.   I don't care.

 

Does life exist on other worlds?  I don't know.  As yet, there is no evidence.  I await further developments.  It's interesting without being urgent.  I can wait.

 

Which part of this is a double standard?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Pete]

I never mentioned any God in my last statement.  I was picking up on Dan saying that there is no life elsewhere.  I thought that was a sweeping statement being as there is so much out there we don't know of. To a rough scale if the earth was a pin head then the sun would be the size of LA. Our next nearest star would be the distance from LA to Denver and the next again would the distance somewhere in Brazil. That is the distance and loads of objects between. To say that there is no life elsewhere is a bit of a jump to conclusions. 

Dan then mentioned his god. On that separate point  I find that god somewhat difficult to talk about as I find it difficult to define and the bible description confused.

 I have mentioned two topics now and as I am sure Dan's grasp of science is a strain, as is the bible's, I am sure he will say something about his god now. Boring

Edited December 14, 2019 by Pete

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

29 minutes ago, Pete said:

I never mentioned any God in my last statement.  I was picking up on Dan saying that there is no life elsewhere.  I thought that was a sweeping statement being as there is so much out there we don't know of. To a rough scale if the earth was a pin head then the sun would be the size of LA. Our next nearest star would be the distance from LA to Denver and the next again would the distance somewhere in Brazil. That is the distance and loads of objects between. To say that there is no life elsewhere is a bit of a jump to conclusions. 

Dan then mentioned his god. On that separate point  I find that god somewhat difficult to talk about as I find it difficult to define and the bible description confused.

 I have mentioned two topics now and as I am sure Dan's grasp of science is a strain, as is the bible's, I am sure he will say something about his god now. Boring

 

 

Dan thinks that we are his polar opposite.  He takes a position based on blind faith.  He imagines that we have taken the opposite position -- based on blind faith.  I know.  It's silly of me to keep going.  I keep promising myself that I'll stop.  It's hard to let go.     

 

 

[Key]

9 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

We can also hold out the possibility that God exist. That is being open minded...And that was my simple point.

 

 

The double standard is when Atheist reject the existence of God due to a lack of evidence, while simultaneously accepting without any evidence that there could be life on other planets.

For the first, they have been saying that. The possibility does exist. just that they require proof to have conclusive belief.

 

Second, they haven't said they accept life on other planets without proof. Just that they accept the possibility. No double standard that I can see there.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

10 minutes ago, Key said:

For the first, they have been saying that. The possibility does exist. just that they require proof to have conclusive belief.

 

Second, they haven't said they accept life on other planets without proof. Just that they accept the possibility. No double standard that I can see there.

 

 

     Yes.   

[Dan56]

11 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Alright then.  Does God exist?  I don't know.  I don't care.  God might exist.  God might not exist. I don't know.   I don't care.

 

Does life exist on other worlds?  I don't know.  As yet, there is no evidence.  I await further developments.  It's interesting without being urgent.  I can wait.

 

Which part of this is a double standard?

 

My comment wasn't specific to you.. I'm aware that your agnostic and are in a constant state of "I don't know"..  I was just amused that an atheist who completely disbelieves in the existence of God, will simultaneously entertain the idea that life exist on other planets, despite the absence of objective evidence to prove either is true.. It goes to show that people choose to personally believe whatever seems likely, plausible, or rational to them. Whereas, one persons belief is mocked as a far fetched myth, while the perception of their own unproven belief is portrayed as a unique possibility.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

My comment wasn't specific to you.. I'm aware that your agnostic and are in a constant state of "I don't know"..  I was just amused that an atheist who completely disbelieves in the existence of God, will simultaneously entertain the idea that life exist on other planets, despite the absence of objective evidence to prove either is true.. It goes to show that people choose to personally believe whatever seems likely, plausible, or rational to them. Whereas, one persons belief is mocked as a far fetched myth, while the perception of their own unproven belief is portrayed as a unique possibility.

 

 

What do you mean a constant state -- ?  Are you under the impression, that I care whether or not God exists?  That I'm searching for an answer?  No.  I'm not searching.  It doesn't matter.  I don't care.

 

I didn't think that even you, could be confused by Apatheism.  I see that I was mistaken.

 

     

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dan56]

6 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

What do you mean a constant state -- ?  Are you under the impression, that I care whether or not God exists?  That I'm searching for an answer?  No.  I'm not searching.  It doesn't matter.  I don't care.

 

I didn't think that even you, could be confused by Apatheism.  I see that I was mistaken.

 

No, I know that you have an apathetic mind-set, which is why I wrote that your content not knowing anything, and as you added, your not looking for answers, and don't care either..  Apatheism = 

[Pete]

Not looking for your answers is not the same as not looking for answers. We look at science to provide the answers and you look at myth Dan.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

Not looking for your answers is not the same as not looking for answers. We look at science to provide the answers and you look at myth Dan.

 

 

Thank you for the effort.  This is futile.  Dan makes no distinctions.  It's his truth or it's a lie.  Still, I didn't think that even he would be confused by Apatheism.  I was mistaken.  The idea is beyond his capacity.  Along with other ideas like facts, evidence and science.    Enough.  It's time to let go.

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

7 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

No, I know that you have an apathetic mind-set, which is why I wrote that your content not knowing anything, and as you added, your not looking for answers, and don't care either..  Apatheism = 

 

 

     Hello Dan.

[Dan56]

21 hours ago, Pete said:

Not looking for your answers is not the same as not looking for answers. We look at science to provide the answers and you look at myth Dan.

 

What definitive answers does your science provide about the origin of life? Zip! Imo, every hypotheses science has come up with to explain how life originated is more mythological than anything I believe. Not to mention a complete absence of the meaning or purpose of life. Find your answers where you can, but I personally ain't satisfied with scientific explanations. 

 

19 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Dan makes no distinctions. It's his truth or it's a lie. Along with other ideas like facts, evidence and science.

 

Its not my truth, its biblical truth.. Other ideas aren't facts, and most are backed by less evidence than the bible.