Christian Threats of Damnation

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

God is Spirit, so He is not seen, but Christians believe that God was revealed through Christ. God is revealed in His works,  in His Word, and in  events.  “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no heart has imagined what God has prepared for those who love Him. But God hath revealed it unto us by his Spirit" (1 Corinthians 2:10).  As Jesus told Philip, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? (john 14:9). But of course, belief and faith are necessary components.

 

 

That's true, but what they miss is that God is knowable in Christ. We understand God through Christ. Seeing is not the real proof, understanding is. Of course, we can't fathom the depths of God (Isaiah 55:8-9), but we can learn enough through His Word to know Him.

 

 

     

 

 

   Uh-huh  

 

 

Edited November 9, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Pete]

The bible is not evidence.  It is bronze age mythology Dan. You may believe something , but that is not evidence either. Your quotes are just pointless.  God is not revealed because it was a differing time with differing beliefs that do not hold up as evidence today. In the past many saw mythology as fact. I don't see any evidence for a god because it is likely that it was not evidence back then unless you believed in that mythology.  

Edited November 10, 2019 by Pete

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

28 minutes ago, Pete said:

The bible is not evidence.  It is bronze age mythology Dan. You may believe something , but that is not evidence either. Your quotes are just pointless.  God is not revealed because it was a differing time with differing beliefs that do not hold up as evidence today. In the past many saw mythology as fact. I don't see any evidence for a god because it is likely that it was not evidence back then unless you believed in that mythology.  

 

 

   Yes.

 

Imagine.  There are people who do think the Bible is evidence.     

 

 

[Dan56]

2 hours ago, Pete said:

The bible is not evidence.  It is bronze age mythology Dan. You may believe something , but that is not evidence either. Your quotes are just pointless.  God is not revealed because it was a differing time with differing beliefs that do not hold up as evidence today. In the past many saw mythology as fact. I don't see any evidence for a god because it is likely that it was not evidence back then unless you believed in that mythology.  

 

Yes, I'm aware that the bible is received by faith and not tangible or objective evidence.. But many things are accepted by the preponderance of evidence,  and while subjective evidence can't be factually evaluated, it can still be credible evidence which can establish some legitimacy towards determining a truth. The prophecies of Christ are a perfect example, and its what takes the gospel out of the category of "mythology" for me. A quote like Psalm 22:18, "They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture". This foretold the crucifixion which occurred 1000 years later when the Roman soldiers gambled for his cloak,  "And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots" (Matthew 27:35). It may be a pointless quote to someone who writes it off as a wild coincident, but its relevant evidence to others, including myself. The bible is evidence when it accurately and divinely predicted a future event.

 

Edited November 10, 2019 by Dan56

[Pete]

I mean, Jonathan, why the insistence that you have to believe if it was actually seen as self evident that a god  had been revealed 

[Pete]

10 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

Yes, I'm aware that the bible is received by faith and not tangible or objective evidence.. But many things are accepted by the preponderance of evidence,  and while subjective evidence can't be factually evaluated, it can still be credible evidence which can establish some legitimacy towards determining a truth. The prophecies of Christ are a perfect example, and its what takes the gospel out of the category of "mythology" for me. A quote like Psalm 22:18, "They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture". This foretold an event at the crucifixion which occurred 1000 years later when the Roman soldiers gambled for his cloak,  "And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots" (Matthew 27:35). It may be a pointless a quote to someone who writes it off as a wild coincident, but its relevant evidence to others, including myself.

 

It foretold squat. The gospels were choreographed to fit the OT because some wanted to make Jesus the Messiah. They bent many OT meanings to do so. The longer it went on the greater the claims. It is mythology and not evidence. 

 

Edited November 10, 2019 by Pete

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 minutes ago, Pete said:

I mean, Jonathan, why the insistence that you have to believe if it was actually seen as self evident that a god  had been revealed 

 

 

A state of self deception requires maintenance.  Ignoring reality takes work.     

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

16 minutes ago, Pete said:

It foretold squat. The gospels were choreographed to fit the OT because some wanted to make Jesus the Messiah. They bent many OT meanings to do so. The longer it went on the greater the claims. It is mythology and not evidence. 

 

 

 

Just so.  Those writers knew the Hebrew Scriptures.  They wrote their stories to fit.  It's called pious fraud.

 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

31 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

Yes, I'm aware that the bible is received by faith and not tangible or objective evidence.. But many things are accepted by the preponderance of evidence,  and while subjective evidence can't be factually evaluated, it can still be credible evidence which can establish some legitimacy towards determining a truth. The prophecies of Christ are a perfect example, and its what takes the gospel out of the category of "mythology" for me. A quote like Psalm 22:18, "They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture". This foretold the crucifixion which occurred 1000 years later when the Roman soldiers gambled for his cloak,  "And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots" (Matthew 27:35). It may be a pointless quote to someone who writes it off as a wild coincident, but its relevant evidence to others, including myself. The bible is evidence when it accurately and divinely predicted a future event.

 

 

 

It's a start.     

 

 

[Dan56]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

It foretold squat. The gospels were choreographed to fit the OT because some wanted to make Jesus the Messiah. They bent many OT meanings to do so. The longer it went on the greater the claims. It is mythology and not evidence. 

 

 

So your saying that Christ volunteered to be crucified to fulfill scripture? I wonder if those Roman soldiers knew what their role was in order to fulfill the prophecy?  Jesus said, "They shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again" (Luke 18:33). I wonder how he choreographed that? Especially the raising from the dead part? Did he bend his own prophecy or fulfill it? I know you don't believe any of it even happened, but the empty tomb is evidence to believers that it did. It would have been easy for his enemies or the Roman soldiers who guarded his tomb to discredit the resurrection claim by producing a body, but they couldn't and didn't. Talk about an absence of evidence!

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

4 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

So your saying that Christ volunteered to be crucified to fulfill scripture? I wonder if those Roman soldiers knew what their role was in order to fulfill the prophecy?  Jesus said, "They shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again" (Luke 18:33). I wonder how he choreographed that? Especially the raising from the dead part? Did he bend his own prophecy or fulfill it? I know you don't believe any of it even happened, but the empty tomb is evidence to believers that it did. It would have been easy for his enemies or the Roman soldiers who guarded his tomb to discredit the resurrection claim by producing a body, but they couldn't and didn't. Talk about an absence of evidence!

 

 

If we are going to pretend that these stories are history -- does that include the zombies walking around Jerusalem?  The zombies that no historian thought worth mentioning?  Just a normal day in Jerusalem?

 

The Romans took full credit for the destruction of the Temple.  Their version is different.

 

The Gospels couldn't agree with each other.  Was it one angel in the tomb?  Or two?  It depends which Gospel.

 

The Gospel writers tried to harmonize their fictions, with the Hebrew Scriptures.  Harmonizing with history -- or each other --  was beyond them.  

 

 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

Dan has been speaking about the importance of Faith.  That it is Faith and Belief that vindicates and proves the Truth of Christianity.

 

Let the good times roll.     

 

 

 

 

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/thefreethinker/2019/11/hindu-god-gets-his-day-in-court-and-wins-his-temple-battle/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=BRSS&utm_campaign=Nonreligious&utm_content=895

 

 

Edited November 10, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Pete]

5 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

So your saying that Christ volunteered to be crucified to fulfill scripture? I wonder if those Roman soldiers knew what their role was in order to fulfill the prophecy?  Jesus said, "They shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again" (Luke 18:33). I wonder how he choreographed that? Especially the raising from the dead part? Did he bend his own prophecy or fulfill it? I know you don't believe any of it even happened, but the empty tomb is evidence to believers that it did. It would have been easy for his enemies or the Roman soldiers who guarded his tomb to discredit the resurrection claim by producing a body, but they couldn't and didn't. Talk about an absence of evidence!

There is no evidence in Jewish history that Jesus existed. It is hard to say whether he did or not. The original Mark's gospel did not say he was resurrected and said the body was not there. They had to add a bit extra to include a resurrection. Then the synoptic gospels copied and elaborated on that one. 

There are people going around who think Robin hood and vampires existed but they were invented.  Just because a 2,000 year old book says something that doesn't make it credible history or evidence. Did Jesus exist  I don't know. Did he do the things told about him and again I don't know  So why you think quoting this book enlarges on the debate, again  I don't know.

Strange you want to debate religion in a no religion section, but I am sure you will

😴😴😴. Our very own religious spin doctor.

Edited November 10, 2019 by Pete

[Pete]

There is so much doubt about religious books and so little actual history or evidence that I doubt all of them.

You know what they say. "Beware the man with only one book". That is because the whole cornerstone of what they say relies on one book of mythology.  So what is the point of debating further. However,  boring that is I am sure you will Dan.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

There is so much doubt about religious books and so little actual history or evidence that I doubt all of them.

You know what they say. "Beware the man with only one book". That is because the whole cornerstone of what they say relies on one book of mythology.  So what is the point of debating further. However,  boring that is I am sure you will Dan.

 

 

Actually, it's 66 books bound together.  But, point taken.     

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

An Addendum:  The Imperial Nature of the Bible -- and Belief

 

This is why the true believers persist.  Non-belief is not an option.

 

Isaiah 45:23

By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

Romans 14:11

It is written: “‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.’”

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

Philippians 2:10

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

 

 

Icing on the cake.

 

Psalm 14:1

The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

Psalm 53:1

 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, and their ways are vile; there is no one who does good.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Pete]

The last two quotes are very judgemental. They judge because they say someone does not believe.  They haven't a clue about my deeds or indeed anyone else's.  Pompous bigots.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

39 minutes ago, Pete said:

The last two quotes are very judgemental. They judge because they say someone does not believe.  They haven't a clue about my deeds or indeed anyone else's.  Pompous bigots.

 

 

The Bible is a war book against non-believers.  Hence, the first three quotes.  "Every knee must bow....."  Of course, every war has propaganda to dehumanize the enemy.  Hence, "The fool says in his heart....."  Look how they define wisdom.  

 

Proverbs 1:7

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

Proverbs 2:5

then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

Proverbs 9:10

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

Proverbs 10:27

The fear of the Lord adds length to life, but the years of the wicked are cut short.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

Proverbs 14:27

The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, turning a person from the snares of death.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

Proverbs 15:16

Better a little with the fear of the Lord than great wealth with turmoil.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

Of course you feel insulted.  That is the nature of war propaganda.  Shall we go on to discuss how the Bible insults, offends, degrades, dehumanizes, defames and humiliates homosexuals?  Or women?  Or Pagans?  Or witches?  A brutal and mean spirited priesthood, will project their own values, onto their God and into their Scripture.

 

What did you think?  That the Bible was a Humanist doctrine?  Full of sweetness and light?  There are some good things there.  It takes careful cheery picking to find them.

 

 

 

That actually brings us back to the topic of this thread.  Christian threats of damnation.  As a tool of social engineering, the threat has not been as effective, as the founders had hoped.  (sarcasm mode -- in particular -- for Dan)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Pete]

No. I was brought up on it. Now it is just meaningless bronze age set of scripts with mythology and an ugly attitude. I don't read it anymore.  Sick of all the mind games and bull. Well that's how I feel.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 minutes ago, Pete said:

No. I was brought up on it. Now it is just meaningless bronze age set of scripts with mythology and an ugly attitude. I don't read it anymore.  Sick of all the mind games and bull. Well that's how I feel.

 

 

     We have consensus.