a common atheist fallacy

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

An addendum:

 

Evolution theory was never part of this discussion.  Your entire argument -- aside from demonstrating that you don't understand evolution theory at all -- has consisted of

 

Evolution no -- so God yes.

 

This is not in any way, objective verifiable proof that your God exists.  That is, your God, distinct from either Deism or Pantheism.

 

If you please, the objective, verifiable evidence, that you insist is available.

 

 

[Dan56]

3 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

If you please, the objective, verifiable evidence, that you insist is available.

 

I mentioned several items that I consider evidence, but its not evidence to nonbelievers.. Seeing Christ himself raise Lazarus from the dead would not be evidence to you, because you couldn't verify how it was done. "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead" (Luke 16:31). Atheist have no faith in anything they can't understand or explain. If fulfilled prophecy is rejected as evidence, then imo, your in denial of evidence that was presented and demonstrated.  Consider Psalms 22 and Isaiah 53, both are prophesies about the Messiah written 1000 and 700 years prior to Christ fulfilling them. To me, that's point blank in-your-face evidence that can't be explained away.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

6 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

1.  I mentioned several items that I consider evidence, but its not evidence to nonbelievers.. Seeing Christ himself raise Lazarus from the dead would not be evidence to you, because you couldn't verify how it was done. "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead" (Luke 16:31). Atheist have no faith in anything they can't understand or explain. 2.  If fulfilled prophecy is rejected as evidence, then imo, your in denial of evidence that was presented and demonstrated.  3.  Consider Psalms 22 and Isaiah 53, both are prophesies about the Messiah written 1000 and 700 years prior to Christ fulfilling them. To me, that's point blank in-your-face evidence that can't be explained away.

 

1.  Then your evidence is not objective.  It is not verifiable.  It is not evidence.  Faith is not evidence.  Neither is it knowledge.  It is faith.

 

2.  Seriously?    Evidence?  

 

3.  Rabbinic authorities have never had a problem with this "evidence".

 

That's it?  Your objective, verifiable evidence?  I think we can slam the lid on this one.    Think back to the start of this thread.  You wanted to know how an Atheist could not believe.  Based on your presentation, my answer remains the same.

 

Because there is no reason to believe.  None at all.

 

Because we have no objective facts about God.  None at all.

 

 

Edited May 20, 2018 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Geordon]

On 5/18/2018 at 1:02 PM, Dan56 said:

Apparently, billions of people do believe, so your assertion of "no reasons to believe" are inaccurate.

 

 

Thou shall not commit logical fallacies:

 

https://carm.org/logical-fallacies-or-fallacies-argumentation

[Geordon]

On 5/18/2018 at 1:02 PM, Dan56 said:

Apparently, billions of people do believe, so your assertion of "no reasons to believe" are inaccurate.

 

 

Thou shall not commit logical fallacies:

 

https://carm.org/logical-fallacies-or-fallacies-argumentation

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

6 hours ago, Geordon said:

 

Thou shall not commit logical fallacies:

 

https://carm.org/logical-fallacies-or-fallacies-argumentation

 

Logical fallacies can be fun.

 

"Eat **.  Billions of flies can't be wrong."

 

 

[cuchulain]

It is easy to explain why an atheist doesn't believe in your god, Dan.  If you will indulge a moment.  

 

The proposition is that your god exists.  The answer to that proposition is either yes or no, from the perspective of a christian who believes in your god, and for most atheists.  If your god doesn't exist, then atheists have a perfectly valid reason for not believing. 

 

If your god does exist, the way he created us has led to the path that we as atheists follow, the plan for the universe, the "random chance" that cannot exist with such an all powerful being, every single piece of the puzzle, has been allotted for by a being of indefinable intellect and capability(christian understanding of god, by the way).  A being capable of doing and knowing every single thing, who knows fully that if he sets a snowball loose on a hillside, it certainly will follow exactly the path that it will, because he created that path, the obstacles, the tiny changes in elevation and friction of wind resistance and every single other piece of the variable that the snowball might possibly take.  He allegedly created the chemical processes, the electricity, every single element that makes up every single factor of existence, every single factor that makes everything exactly what it is, he set the course on meteorites and comets, on every single environmental impact that is possible that has occurred(remember that whole fulfilled prophecy piece you tout as evidence, to show that god knows in advance what is going to happen, by the way, negating the possibility of free will by your own words).  This being, this supremacy of the universe, created us EXACTLY AS WE ARE, as doubters, as non believers...because he knew how it would turn out, that psychology(which he created as well, by the way) would work in x direction within our brains, that the wind would blow on the fifth of march and caress our cheek just so, inspiring us to stop for a second and enjoy it, causing us later to wonder about that wind and the god we had heard so much about, starting the chain reaction of thought and curiosity that eventually leads to us taking that atheistic stance...

 

The answer is, in short.  god doesn't exist, or he made us nonbelievers and we had no choice.  Either he doesn't exist, or he is a monster beyond all human rationalization who tortures and murders on a regular basis to the thunderous applause of crowds of his followers, followers who cheer at the languish and suffering in hell of the non believer, who they have been told to have compassion for while at the same time have contempt for.

[Geordon]

8 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Logical fallacies can be fun.

 

"Eat **.  Billions of flies can't be wrong."

 

[Geordon]

3 hours ago, cuchulain said:

his being, this supremacy of the universe, created us EXACTLY AS WE ARE, as doubters, as non believers...because he knew how it would turn out,

 

 

QFT.  If the Christian God is infallible, He doesn't make mistakes, and non-Christians are part of the Divine Plan.  Furthermore, all versions of belief AND non-belief (in the Christian worldview) are correct and holy wars (The Crusades, for example) are anathema to God's intent.

[cuchulain]

31 minutes ago, Geordon said:

 

 

QFT.  If the Christian God is infallible, He doesn't make mistakes, and non-Christians are part of the Divine Plan.  Furthermore, all versions of belief AND non-belief (in the Christian worldview) are correct and holy wars (The Crusades, for example) are anathema to God's intent.

or god intends mass murder and mayhem in his name...which doesn't seem good...

[Geordon]

1 hour ago, cuchulain said:

or god intends mass murder and mayhem in his name...which doesn't seem good...

 

At the very least, those circumstances don't exactly embody "all-loving and all-forgiving" in the deity.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

6 hours ago, cuchulain said:

It is easy to explain why an atheist doesn't believe in your god, Dan.  If you will indulge a moment.  

 

The proposition is that your god exists.  The answer to that proposition is either yes or no, from the perspective of a christian who believes in your god, and for most atheists.  If your god doesn't exist, then atheists have a perfectly valid reason for not believing. 

 

If your god does exist, the way he created us has led to the path that we as atheists follow, the plan for the universe, the "random chance" that cannot exist with such an all powerful being, every single piece of the puzzle, has been allotted for by a being of indefinable intellect and capability(christian understanding of god, by the way).  A being capable of doing and knowing every single thing, who knows fully that if he sets a snowball loose on a hillside, it certainly will follow exactly the path that it will, because he created that path, the obstacles, the tiny changes in elevation and friction of wind resistance and every single other piece of the variable that the snowball might possibly take.  He allegedly created the chemical processes, the electricity, every single element that makes up every single factor of existence, every single factor that makes everything exactly what it is, he set the course on meteorites and comets, on every single environmental impact that is possible that has occurred(remember that whole fulfilled prophecy piece you tout as evidence, to show that god knows in advance what is going to happen, by the way, negating the possibility of free will by your own words).  This being, this supremacy of the universe, created us EXACTLY AS WE ARE, as doubters, as non believers...because he knew how it would turn out, that psychology(which he created as well, by the way) would work in x direction within our brains, that the wind would blow on the fifth of march and caress our cheek just so, inspiring us to stop for a second and enjoy it, causing us later to wonder about that wind and the god we had heard so much about, starting the chain reaction of thought and curiosity that eventually leads to us taking that atheistic stance...

 

The answer is, in short.  god doesn't exist, or he made us nonbelievers and we had no choice.  Either he doesn't exist, or he is a monster beyond all human rationalization who tortures and murders on a regular basis to the thunderous applause of crowds of his followers, followers who cheer at the languish and suffering in hell of the non believer, who they have been told to have compassion for while at the same time have contempt for.

 

 

In fairness to Dan, the only topic on the table, was reasons to believe that God exists.  God's obvious evil, is not relevant to this discussion.

 

  

[cuchulain]

2 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

In fairness to Dan, the only topic on the table, was reasons to believe that God exists.  God's obvious evil, is not relevant to this discussion.

 

  

it is if you want to avoid worshipping evil...but for those who like to redefine words to fit their idea of good it probably doesnt matter.  god can commit no wrong becomes an excuse for murder.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

10 minutes ago, cuchulain said:

it is if you want to avoid worshipping evil...but for those who like to redefine words to fit their idea of good it probably doesnt matter.  god can commit no wrong becomes an excuse for murder.

 

Whether God is worthy of worship was never part of this discussion.  Only reasons to believe that God exists.

 

Still, a bit of humor.

 

"When I get angry at people, I stop and ask.  'What would God do?'  Then I try to drown them."     

Edited May 21, 2018 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Geordon said:

 

At the very least, those circumstances don't exactly embody "all-loving and all-forgiving" in the deity.

 

 

God's forgiveness is a separate can of worms.  I'd rather not open that in this thread.    

[Dan56]

10 hours ago, cuchulain said:

The answer is, in short.  god doesn't exist, or he made us nonbelievers and we had no choice.  Either he doesn't exist, or he is a monster beyond all human rationalization who tortures and murders on a regular basis to the thunderous applause of crowds of his followers, followers who cheer at the languish and suffering in hell of the non believer, who they have been told to have compassion for while at the same time have contempt for.

 

Its been my contention that belief is a choice, non-belief is also a choice. A nonbeliever reads the same book I do, but comes to a different conclusion. To make the assertion that free will is negated because God has foreknowledge of everything that will happen (omniscient), presupposes that God is incapable of changing what might automatically happen and is not all powerful (omnipotent). When God tested Abraham by requiring him to sacrifice Issac, He said, "Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me" (Genesis 22:12). This suggest God does not know our choices before we make them. John 3:16 says, "Whosoever believeth in him shall not perish". That's a calling that requires a choice, not a forgone conclusion of who will or won't believe. 

 

And most Christians don't cheer or applaud that nonbelievers will perish, one reason some are so pushy is because they don't want to see that happen.  

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Its been my contention that belief is a choice, non-belief is also a choice. A nonbeliever reads the same book I do, but comes to a different conclusion. To make the assertion that free will is negated because God has foreknowledge of everything that will happen (omniscient), presupposes that God is incapable of changing what might automatically happen and is not all powerful (omnipotent). When God tested Abraham by requiring him to sacrifice Issac, He said, "Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me" (Genesis 22:12). This suggest God does not know our choices before we make them. John 3:16 says, "Whosoever believeth in him shall not perish". That's a calling that requires a choice, not a forgone conclusion of who will or won't believe. 

 

And most Christians don't cheer or applaud that nonbelievers will perish, one reason some are so pushy is because they don't want to see that happen.  

 

 

What a shame that you have nothing to back that up.  A choice requires evidence.  

[mererdog]

On 5/19/2018 at 7:52 PM, Dan56 said:

Atheist have no faith in anything they can't understand or explain.

That is not true.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

On ‎5‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 2:58 PM, cuchulain said:

It is easy to explain why an atheist doesn't believe in your god, Dan.  If you will indulge a moment.  

 

The proposition is that your god exists.  The answer to that proposition is either yes or no, from the perspective of a christian who believes in your god, and for most atheists.  If your god doesn't exist, then atheists have a perfectly valid reason for not believing. 

 

If your god does exist, the way he created us has led to the path that we as atheists follow, the plan for the universe, the "random chance" that cannot exist with such an all powerful being, every single piece of the puzzle, has been allotted for by a being of indefinable intellect and capability(christian understanding of god, by the way).  A being capable of doing and knowing every single thing, who knows fully that if he sets a snowball loose on a hillside, it certainly will follow exactly the path that it will, because he created that path, the obstacles, the tiny changes in elevation and friction of wind resistance and every single other piece of the variable that the snowball might possibly take.  He allegedly created the chemical processes, the electricity, every single element that makes up every single factor of existence, every single factor that makes everything exactly what it is, he set the course on meteorites and comets, on every single environmental impact that is possible that has occurred(remember that whole fulfilled prophecy piece you tout as evidence, to show that god knows in advance what is going to happen, by the way, negating the possibility of free will by your own words).  This being, this supremacy of the universe, created us EXACTLY AS WE ARE, as doubters, as non believers...because he knew how it would turn out, that psychology(which he created as well, by the way) would work in x direction within our brains, that the wind would blow on the fifth of march and caress our cheek just so, inspiring us to stop for a second and enjoy it, causing us later to wonder about that wind and the god we had heard so much about, starting the chain reaction of thought and curiosity that eventually leads to us taking that atheistic stance...

 

The answer is, in short.  god doesn't exist, or he made us nonbelievers and we had no choice.  Either he doesn't exist, or he is a monster beyond all human rationalization who tortures and murders on a regular basis to the thunderous applause of crowds of his followers, followers who cheer at the languish and suffering in hell of the non believer, who they have been told to have compassion for while at the same time have contempt for.

 

 

This is good, but I think you are making something simple into something complicated.

 

I need a reason to believe.  I don't need a reason to not believe.  

[cuchulain]

16 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

This is good, but I think you are making something simple into something complicated.

 

I need a reason to believe.  I don't need a reason to not believe.  

thumbs up emoji...but i cant get it to work so said it instead.