The Lord s Prayer/Our Father

[revkhbostic]

Our Father,who art in heaven,

hallowed be thy name;

thy kingdom come;thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Give us this dayour daily bread,

&forgive us our trespasses,

as we forgive those who trespass against us;

& lead us not into temptations;

but deliver us from evil.  Now theres 2 forms of the Lords Prayer in the Book of Common Prayer: the 1st ends with a Amen after the above the 2nd goes on with:

 

For thine is thekingdom,the power & the glory.Forever & ever.Amen

 

Speaking of the book of common prayer,Ive started on page 37 of the 1979 version of the Episcopal Book of Common Prayer,

to start a service after a couple hymns,whatever music is to be injected ,evev from a stereo.

On pg 42,after the genl confession,theres a alternate absolution I marked in my copy,on page 332

On pg 45,after the Venite, interject a sermon or lesson.

I bought 1/2 doz used copies of The Ministers Manual for maybe 5 bucks a copy,plus 4 for S/H

at Alibris.com edited by Cox.Somewhere between 60s to 2000s yrs,.

I also have a set of Martin Luther s lectionary reprinted in Engiish  ,I picked up for 20/30 bucks at christianbooks.com.

I have a few other sermon books...

After sermon a hymn or2,& marked in my book copy,'proceed to pg 52,we praise thee to be said."

Then 2nd lesson like scripture passage for the day or just move into Benedictus or psalm 100 to be found on pg 50 or 45,also marked into my book.                                 then back to pg53 for Apostles Creed or Nicene Creed found on pg 326.All this written in on pg 53.

The the Our Father on pg54followed by one or the other

\,I just readf thru the whole ento into the collection,then one of the prayers on pg 55

,then A collect for peace as 2nd prayer,then 3rd prayer A collect for Grace found on pg 57

.After which a few more hymns of your choice injected into the service.

 

Then the Genl thanksgiving prayer after collection,I also took the old one out of a copy of a 16th century copy of the Book of Common Prayer

,zeroxed it & put over the Genl thanksgiving prayer

Then the prayer of Chrysostom& a couple blessings.A couple closing Hymns,Dissmissal for Low services without communion

,or to communion in the old 16th centuryversion of the book of common prayer

Starting on pg 254:" Hear what comfortable words our Savior Jesus christ said to all who turn to him"

OpCit ISBN 0-8050-2284-8 The Book of Common Prayer,a 1992 reprint of a 16th century copy

 

available at alibris.com for about 15 bucks with s/h in that amount,used I looked it up last week

The 1979 book of common prayer is there too.Seabury press,according to thr use of the Episcopal Church

,which started after the revolutionary was to be separate but equal to the church of England,to keep people from leaning towards England after the war of Independence.

 

I always stated I m ordained thru the Universal Life Church,its a non denom service for all that wanted to partake....no matter what their denomination.Theres a lot of prayersin those books,Be Blessed,Rev KHBostic,non denom,Hon D.D. ,& AASc,SWT

 

 

[revkhbostic]

I d also say the above reprint of the old 16th century book of common prayer is to be bought as it has a funeral service

,about 20 minutes to read thru it

.Marriage ceremonies,ships captains could use it;

baptism s of babies,children,& those of older yrs,catechism/sunday school stuff...

morning & evening services...

visitation & communion of the sick...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Dan56]

14 hours ago, revkhbostic said:

Our Father,who art in heaven,

hallowed be thy name;

thy kingdom come;thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Give us this dayour daily bread,

&forgive us our trespasses,

as we forgive those who trespass against us;

& lead us not into temptations;

but deliver us from evil.  Now theres 2 forms of the Lords Prayer in the Book of Common Prayer: the 1st ends with a Amen after the above the 2nd goes on with:

 

For thine is thekingdom,the power & the glory.Forever & ever.Amen

 

 

Thought this was interesting.... Pope wants to change the Lord's Prayer ;

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/12/08/569385769/pope-francis-suggests-changing-the-words-to-lord-s-prayer

[revkhbostic]

16 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Thought this was interesting.... Pope wants to change the Lord's Prayer ;

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/12/08/569385769/pope-francis-suggests-changing-the-words-to-lord-s-prayer

I also thought it interesting but am fond of it as is...

Edited December 11, 2017 by revkhbostic

[Songster]

A prayer's power lies not in the words, but in the faith of the supplicant...

[mererdog]

13 hours ago, Songster said:

A prayer's power lies not in the words, but in the faith of the supplicant...

The wording of a prayer oft-repeated has the power to shape faith.

[Songster]

6 hours ago, mererdog said:

The wording of a prayer oft-repeated has the power to shape faith.

I make a distinction between prayer (an expression of the soul offered up to God) and the mindless recitation of a string of words employed to indoctrinate people to a cause.

 

[Dan56]

11 hours ago, mererdog said:

The wording of a prayer oft-repeated has the power to shape faith.

 

And altering the prayer of the Lord has the power to re-shape faith.  

 

3 hours ago, Songster said:

I make a distinction between prayer (an expression of the soul offered up to God) and the mindless recitation of a string of words employed to indoctrinate people to a cause.

 

 

I agree that the Lord's prayer was an example of how to pray, never intended to be repetitious. But changing the words of the sample prayer, can change the expression of the soul who offered the prayer. Imo, removing "Lead us not into temptation" is a no no. 

Edited December 13, 2017 by Dan56

[mererdog]

10 hours ago, Songster said:

I make a distinction between prayer (an expression of the soul offered up to God) and the mindless recitation of a string of words employed to indoctrinate people to a cause.

 

Ok. I still think that the wording of an oft-repeated prayer has the power to shape faith. 

[mererdog]

6 hours ago, Dan56 said:

. Imo, removing "Lead us not into temptation" is a no no. 

Why? I mean, I can understand not removing it simply for the sake of removing it, but are you sure there isn't a more accurate translation? 

Edited December 13, 2017 by mererdog

[Dan56]

6 hours ago, mererdog said:

Why? I mean, I can understand not removing it simply for the sake of removing it, but are you sure there isn't a more accurate translation? 

 

The Greek translation of this scripture is quite clear.  It is "And lead us not into temptation."  The scripture verse is not "leave us not unto temptation."  The Greek is translated literally as saying, "lead us not into temptation:  "καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃςἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν".  

[mererdog]

18 hours ago, Dan56 said:

The Greek is translated literally as saying, "lead us not into temptation:  "καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃςἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν".  

My very cursory research indicates that is not true. This looks like one of those cases where a literal translation makes literally no sense, which is usually caused by figurative and/or idiomatic language in the original text. 

 

 

 

The problem stems from the translation of one Greek word, “eisenènkes,” said Massimo Grilli, a professor of New Testament studies at Gregorian University in Rome.

“The Greek verb ‘eisfèro’ means ‘take inside,’ and the form used in the prayer, ‘eisenènkes,’ literally means ‘don’t take us inside,’ ” he added.

“But that’s a very literal translation, which must be interpreted,” Grilli said.

A 4th century Latin translation of the Bible by St. Jerome, which was adopted by the Catholic Church, sticks to the literal meaning, using the Latin “inducere,” which means “bring in.”

 

https://www.google.com/amp/www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-vatican-our-father-20171208-story,amp.html

 

Edited December 14, 2017 by mererdog

[cuchulain]

3 hours ago, mererdog said:

My very cursory research indicates that is not true. This looks like one of those cases where a literal translation makes literally no sense, which is usually caused by figurative and/or idiomatic language in the original text. 

 

 

 

The problem stems from the translation of one Greek word, “eisenènkes,” said Massimo Grilli, a professor of New Testament studies at Gregorian University in Rome.

“The Greek verb ‘eisfèro’ means ‘take inside,’ and the form used in the prayer, ‘eisenènkes,’ literally means ‘don’t take us inside,’ ” he added.

“But that’s a very literal translation, which must be interpreted,” Grilli said.

A 4th century Latin translation of the Bible by St. Jerome, which was adopted by the Catholic Church, sticks to the literal meaning, using the Latin “inducere,” which means “bring in.”

 

https://www.google.com/amp/www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-vatican-our-father-20171208-story,amp.html

 

maybe scribal error has indeed shaped faith through an erroneously translated prayer...i wonder about the rest of the book too.