Misunderstandings in civilized community

[mererdog]

2 hours ago, VonNoble said:

 

So etiquette does not provide a framework for learning the needs and desires of other people?

It can. It does not always. It does not automatically.

Etiquette is a tool. It is a powerful tool. Powerful tools are dangerous. You have to wear protective clothing, keep your workspace free of hazards, and know where the exits are.

And take off your rings. No one needs to lose a finger.

Etiquette is artificial. This means it is inherently imperfect. A little regular maintenance helps to ensure everything is running correctly. Checking your work for flaws is usually best practice.

 

What? Now you want me to apologize because you called me fat? How is that fair?

Edited September 16, 2017 by mererdog

[VonNoble]

 

1 hour ago, mererdog said:

Etiquette is artificial. This means it is inherently imperfect. A little regular maintenance helps to ensure everything is running correctly. Checking your work for flaws is usually best practice.

 

Honesty is also subjected to equivocation.  Which means the exchange can be 

just as imperfect.  So I am not sure the structure in either case one ups the other. 

 

That regular maintenance would benefit from feedback.

Which requires working dialogue.

Perhaps from an imperfect foundation that both can at least understand.

Hence, maybe, requiring an agreement upon which they can build.  Maybe

 

1 hour ago, mererdog said:

What? Now you want me to apologize because you called me fat? How is that fair?

  Fair?   What's that?

 

von

[VonNoble]

2 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

To my memory, "dating" -- at least in the beginning, was different.  There was more talk and less sex.  When there was sex, it was more gradual in unfolding.   I found it more comfortable.  I had a sense of what was expected.  I had a sense of norms.  There was a focus on getting to know more about each other.  When people were not compatible, they found out more quickly, without things becoming more committed.  Breakups were swift and less traumatic.  People simply didn't date each other when there was nothing there.  

 

Now, there are no norms.  At least, I don't know of any.  I miss norms.  

 

 

There are days I miss the norms too. 

You have hit something in here that may get to the heart of this topic better than the original posting

(thank you).....did the protocols we USED to use allow for expectations to be more comfortable?

 

Any two people (dating or not) at least had some degree of comfort because they had reasonable

expectations of how the initial exchanges would occur?

Interesting. 

 

von

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

On 9/14/2017 at 6:11 PM, the Hearthwitch said:

"Why do we not incorporate that

as part of everyone's formal education?   How do parents better their

own skills in order to teach their children?  How DO they teach such

things to kids?"

 

Some of us do, and are. My youngest is currently in a charter school where this is emphasized (which is good, because Thing Two is dense, when it comes to social cues, and has demonstrated an aptitude for pugilism unseen in our family since his great-grandfather's lifetime). In theory, this is also being taught in our public middle school, too, but I don't credit Thing One's social skills to their teachings.

 

As a parent, I can tell you that the best way to teach 'em is to make every mistake a teachable moment- interrupt (intervene), make 'em stop and think it through, and then allow 'em to proceed with reaction/action of their own. Same goes for manners in general. If you want your children to NOT be "those kids" at the restaurant, you start taking them out when they're really little, and you demonstrate how they need to behave. They fail to do that, you take them out. Repeat until the lesson takes. It doesn't take long. They want to succeed. It's not that difficult- it just takes some attention and awareness. You just have to be invested in making sure that they're going to grow up to be...well, adults. 

 

I don't know who said it.

 

"Learn from the mistakes of others.  You won't live long enough to make them all your self."

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, VonNoble said:

 

There are days I miss the norms too. 

You have hit something in here that may get to the heart of this topic better than the original posting

(thank you).....did the protocols we USED to use allow for expectations to be more comfortable?

 

Any two people (dating or not) at least had some degree of comfort because they had reasonable

expectations of how the initial exchanges would occur?

Interesting. 

 

von

 

 

Do you remember dating norms?  I may be showing my age here.  If the first three dates went well, the third or fourth might end with a good night kiss.  No groping.  Just a kiss.  "Putting out" was not an expectation or even a possibility.  That died about forty years ago.

 

It's been a long time since I've done any dating.  Now, it's scary.  

 

[scottedward]

On 9/13/2017 at 8:59 AM, VonNoble said:

Every human at some point has learned the value of cooperation.

Each by adulthood has also endured more than a few misunderstandings. 

 

OFTEN these are simple communication errors. 

We thought they said this or that - and we heard it incorrectly.

 

THEY intended something completely different than our conclusion. 

WE did not communicate our idea clearly.

 

Both sides did not ask enough questions. 

Both sides jumped to conclusions. 

 

IF any or even most of that is true - why is it we spend so little time 

cultivating communications skills?    Why do we not incorporate that

as part of everyone's formal education?   How do parents better their

own skills in order to teach their children?  How DO they teach such

things to kids?    Without some formal "learning" in this area how do we

get feedback to know if we are effective as the sender or the receiver?

 

Hummmmm......I need to work on this even though I HAVE HAD the 

benefit of formal training.

 

Did we lose something when we stopped having some old school, boring, 

social conventions?    Like how do we all agree introductions should

take place?   How do we interact (a bit more formally) in the first

few minutes of a conversation?  Did polite society have some conventions

that had worth we are now lacking?

 

Pick and choose on this one.....it seems worthy of discussion to me. 

 

Von

 

I think (or believe) our communication problems begin in the United States with capitalism. Too many parents work too long and too hard to care for families they allow X-Box to babysit for them.  I think a national educational system is preferable to state run, since states often go broke, and yet our nation is the richest country in the world.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

10 hours ago, scottedward said:

 

I think (or believe) our communication problems begin in the United States with capitalism. Too many parents work too long and too hard to care for families they allow X-Box to babysit for them.  I think a national educational system is preferable to state run, since states often go broke, and yet our nation is the richest country in the world.

 

I don't know who said it.

 

"For every complicated problem, there is a solution, which is easy and simple and wrong."