What does your belief system require of you in these times?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

7 hours ago, mererdog said:

I hear what you are saying. Being helped by an individual can let you know that someone cares about you personally, in a way that being helped by an organization normally can't, though. Like the difference between a meal cooked for you by a friend versus one you bought in a store, you know?

I agree fully.  At the same time, government aid (food stamps) -- lets me do my own cooking.  The low cost lunches at my senior centers also help.   It all has a place.

[Brother Kaman]

It is my thought that when one receives help from an individual, one is likely to feel obligation. When one receives help from a church, one feels blessed. When one receives help from the government, one feels entitled or perhaps, on another note, diminished.

[Rev. Calli]

On 2/26/2017 at 5:08 PM, kokigami said:

 a bit off topic, but on the subject of your local debate. https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/09/welfare-reform-direct-cash-poor/407236/

 

 

Greetings for you my brother,

Thanks for the link.  A very interesting article.  Something to share with my friends.

In Solidarity,

Rev. Calli

[Rev. Calli]

16 hours ago, mererdog said:

There are those who strongly feel that under no circumstances should we trust a black man.  The thought behind this is that most black men are thieves. Seem reasonable to you?

Personally, if I needed help, it would mean much more to me to be helped by an individual than an organization. You?

 

Greetings to you my brother,

I certainly agree with you that one on one help from one individual to another feels more personal than from some organization or government agency.

The issues many of my brothers and sisters in the ministry have faced in giving is trying to be good stewards of the limited financial resources available.  Most churches operate on very slender budgets.  When I was in the active ministry, I was fortunate in that I had available some small amount of funds I could use to help those who came to my door.  But lots of my colleagues do not have that luxury.  Most in the clergy want to help everyone, but when over the space of a week you have 4 or 5 people coming to  your door with the same reason they need money (for example their parents were just killed in Chicago and they need bus fare to get to Cook County Hospital), you begin to suspect that you are not getting the real story.  

Then too, if you have an active ministry where you are exposed to people suffering from addictions, you began to wonder if directly giving money to them is a good idea, especially when they come to you obviously wasted.  

But then too, I am reminded of a line from one of my favorite comedians, Kathleen Madigan, who has been known, after one of her friends sees her giving handouts to a panhandler and states that "Kathleen, you know they are only going to spend it on cigarettes and booze", to respond "and I'm not?"

For myself, I try not judge, and give help when I can, even if it means giving a few dollars to someone who I suspect will not use it in a helpful manner.  Admittedly, sometimes it's only because they spun out such an obvious lie that I'm giving them money for the entertainment value of their story. And if they have come to me saying they need money for a meal, I will offer to take them to a local McDonals or the like.  I've even been known, if someone says they need money to get across town, to offer to drive them myself.   In these cases, if they didn't really need the money for the reasons they had given me, they usually depart in a huff.  

What some of us here in the Milwaukee area do is keep on hand business sized cards that list some of the services available to people in need.  The local shelters, the food pantries and meal sites, and the free medical clinics.

Still it is a difficult problem, one that I don't have any great answers to.

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

4 hours ago, Brother Kaman said:

It is my thought that when one receives help from an individual, one is likely to feel obligation. When one receives help from a church, one feels blessed. When one receives help from the government, one feels entitled or perhaps, on another note, diminished.

In loose terms, I have done enough good with my life that when good things come to me, it is a balancing of the scales.  I have helped my friends.  I still help my friends.  It works out.

Government aid does not diminish me.  I have paid more than my share of taxes over the years.  It's in the nature of a refund.

I don't do church food pantries.  That would have me feeling diminished.  Not blessed.  I'm not in enough distress that I'm ready to pretend piety.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

35 minutes ago, Rev. Calli said:

Greetings to you my brother,

I certainly agree with you that one on one help from one individual to another feels more personal than from some organization or government agency.

The issues many of my brothers and sisters in the ministry have faced in giving is trying to be good stewards of the limited financial resources available.  Most churches operate on very slender budgets.  When I was in the active ministry, I was fortunate in that I had available some small amount of funds I could use to help those who came to my door.  But lots of my colleagues do not have that luxury.  Most in the clergy want to help everyone, but when over the space of a week you have 4 or 5 people coming to  your door with the same reason they need money (for example their parents were just killed in Chicago and they need bus fare to get to Cook County Hospital), you begin to suspect that you are not getting the real story.  

Then too, if you have an active ministry where you are exposed to people suffering from addictions, you began to wonder if directly giving money to them is a good idea, especially when they come to you obviously wasted.  

But then too, I am reminded of a line from one of my favorite comedians, Kathleen Madigan, who has been known, after one of her friends sees her giving handouts to a panhandler and states that "Kathleen, you know they are only going to spend it on cigarettes and booze", to respond "and I'm not?"

For myself, I try not judge, and give help when I can, even if it means giving a few dollars to someone who I suspect will not use it in a helpful manner.  Admittedly, sometimes it's only because they spun out such an obvious lie that I'm giving them money for the entertainment value of their story. And if they have come to me saying they need money for a meal, I will offer to take them to a local McDonals or the like.  I've even been known, if someone says they need money to get across town, to offer to drive them myself.   In these cases, if they didn't really need the money for the reasons they had given me, they usually depart in a huff.  

What some of us here in the Milwaukee area do is keep on hand business sized cards that list some of the services available to people in need.  The local shelters, the food pantries and meal sites, and the free medical clinics.

Still it is a difficult problem, one that I don't have any great answers to.

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli

 

I've been there often enough.  You want to do the right thing.  You hate to feel used by a taker.  Yes.  I've been there.

[mererdog]

6 hours ago, Rev. Calli said:

Greetings to you my brother,

Hi. 

I have lived all over the country and I have never driven a car. This means that I have run into more than a few panhandlers over the last few decades.

I will start by saying that some choose begging as a carreer path. They won't necessarily say it that way, but there are people who have been putting in full-time hours panhandling for years. If you are good at it, you can make a living at it, so some do just that. From what I have seen, they often work in groups, with new people seeming to get trained in ways surprisingly similar to what you'd expect to happen with a company's new hires.

I understand why people don't trust beggars. However...

I can tell you with certainty that lying about why they need the money is not a sign that they do not need the money. If they are not simply a cynic trying to cash in on your gullibility, the person asking for your help is likely very desperate and very ashamed. If they feel like lying is needed to get what they desperately need, and/or to protect themself from shame, it takes a very strong motivator to overrule that feeling.

The drug thing is morally more complex than most admit. An addict can die from going cold turkey. If you can't help them get clean, paying for their next hit may literally save their life, even as it helps ruin their life. But, of course, you can't tell in advance what will happen if they don't get the money, just as you don't really know that they will buy drugs, even if that is their plan.

And that is the important part. You don't know. So we are talking about managing risk. So, which would be worse? Giving money to someone who wasted it, or refusing to give money to someone who died from lack of it? Err on the side of protecting your purse or your neighbor?

Edited February 28, 2017 by mererdog

[mererdog]

10 hours ago, Brother Kaman said:

It is my thought that when one receives help from an individual, one is likely to feel obligation. When one receives help from a church, one feels blessed. When one receives help from the government, one feels entitled or perhaps, on another note, diminished.

When my wife's aunt (is aunt-in-law a thing?) was helped by the church, she just felt vindicated in joining in the first place. She is not quiet about the fact that she considers her church membership to be a kind of insurance policy.

[mererdog]

13 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

I agree fully.  At the same time, government aid (food stamps) -- lets me do my own cooking.  The low cost lunches at my senior centers also help.   It all has a place.

As an anarchist, I consider government aid to be immoral. I simply do not believe that the Robin Hood ideal of robbing one to help another is right. Don't get me wrong, I am glad that people are helped, but I do not justify means with ends. So my goal is a world where people voluntarily provide the help others need. If anyone figured out how to get there, let me know.

[Brother Kaman]

7 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

In loose terms, I have done enough good with my life that when good things come to me, it is a balancing of the scales.  I have helped my friends.  I still help my friends.  It works out.

Government aid does not diminish me.  I have paid more than my share of taxes over the years.  It's in the nature of a refund.

I don't do church food pantries.  That would have me feeling diminished.  Not blessed.  I'm not in enough distress that I'm ready to pretend piety.

For you, then, government assistance falls into the entitlement catergory. You paid for it so you are entitled to it when you need it.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, mererdog said:

As an anarchist, I consider government aid to be immoral. I simply do not believe that the Robin Hood ideal of robbing one to help another is right. Don't get me wrong, I am glad that people are helped, but I do not justify means with ends. So my goal is a world where people voluntarily provide the help others need. If anyone figured out how to get there, let me know.

In my case, it's in the nature of a savings account.  Not Robbin Hood.  I paid in plenty.  Now, I'm making withdrawals.  

[mererdog]

3 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

In my case, it's in the nature of a savings account.  Not Robbin Hood.  I paid in plenty.  Now, I'm making withdrawals.  

The problem is that it doesn't work that way. The money you gave is long gone. You can only take money out of the system if others are putting more in. A lot of those people are only putting money in because they are threatened with violence. Not by you, of course, so I have no quarrel with your acts.

To be as clear as I can, my problem is with the system, not those it is designed to help. I think society can do better by you. I hope we will.

 

Edited February 28, 2017 by mererdog

[Brother Kaman]

6 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

In my case, it's in the nature of a savings account.  Not Robbin Hood.  I paid in plenty.  Now, I'm making withdrawals.  

This statement makes me think of you as the sort who gives the government an interest free loan for a year and is tickled they give it back as a refund.

[Rev. Calli]

On 2/26/2017 at 8:40 PM, mark 45 said:

although you didn't ask me,i wanted to respond anyway.

what i do depends on the situation.sometimes it's just one person who needs help,not necessarily financial.could be something as simple as helping change a tire,or referring them to the local va office.or something like buying them something to eat rather than giving them the money.and yes,i have been told i am smart,but not as smart as i think .and while i have given to organizations,i don't find them as trustworthy as i would like.

that isn't to say i haven't given a $1 or 2 to someone.like i said,it depends.jonathon made a good point about the good samaritan.helping just one person is sometimes the best we can do regardless of belief or lack of. 

 

Greetings to you my brother,

And sometimes all we can be is a silent, caring presence in somebodies life when they are going through tragedy.  One of the earliest lessons I learned in my own ministry is the concept of the "Ministry of Presence".  We can't always do anything at all to even begin to fix someone's crisis.  Sometimes all we can do is sit quietly, hold their hand, and help them to know that they are not alone.  

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli

[Rev. Calli]

12 hours ago, mererdog said:

Hi. 

I have lived all over the country and I have never driven a car. This means that I have run into more than a few panhandlers over the last few decades.

I will start by saying that some choose begging as a carreer path. They won't necessarily say it that way, but there are people who have been putting in full-time hours panhandling for years. If you are good at it, you can make a living at it, so some do just that. From what I have seen, they often work in groups, with new people seeming to get trained in ways surprisingly similar to what you'd expect to happen with a company's new hires.

I understand why people don't trust beggars. However...

I can tell you with certainty that lying about why they need the money is not a sign that they do not need the money. If they are not simply a cynic trying to cash in on your gullibility, the person asking for your help is likely very desperate and very ashamed. If they feel like lying is needed to get what they desperately need, and/or to protect themself from shame, it takes a very strong motivator to overrule that feeling.

The drug thing is morally more complex than most admit. An addict can die from going cold turkey. If you can't help them get clean, paying for their next hit may literally save their life, even as it helps ruin their life. But, of course, you can't tell in advance what will happen if they don't get the money, just as you don't really know that they will buy drugs, even if that is their plan.

And that is the important part. You don't know. So we are talking about managing risk. So, which would be worse? Giving money to someone who wasted it, or refusing to give money to someone who died from lack of it? Err on the side of protecting your purse or your neighbor?

 

Greetings to you my brother,

The issue, as I see it at least, is not a matter of protecting your purse.  Again most people who go into ministry really do want to help as many people as they can.  But the problem is that the resources available are finite, so you want to be a good steward of those resources, and use them where they will do the most good.  In the Christian faith, as I accept it, everyone is your neighbor, even those who you may find personally detestable.  Everyone who comes to your office door, or rings your parsonage bell, or comes up to you on the street is a child of God, your brother or your sister in Christ.  So you want to help them with their needs.  But what is best, giving money to a person who you know is going just hand it over to their dealer, or to the mother who needs money to feed her children? And of course, you're right that without the handout the addict could conceivably die from withdrawal, and that addicts life is just as sacred as the life of anyone.  But sometimes we have to make the choice, and it's not easy.  

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli

[Rev. Calli]

11 hours ago, mererdog said:

As an anarchist, I consider government aid to be immoral. I simply do not believe that the Robin Hood ideal of robbing one to help another is right. Don't get me wrong, I am glad that people are helped, but I do not justify means with ends. So my goal is a world where people voluntarily provide the help others need. If anyone figured out how to get there, let me know.

 

Greetings to you my brother,

Sitting prominently in my bookcase is my cherished copy of "Alongside Night". If you've never read it, I highly recommend it.

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

14 hours ago, mererdog said:

The problem is that it doesn't work that way. The money you gave is long gone. You can only take money out of the system if others are putting more in. A lot of those people are only putting money in because they are threatened with violence. Not by you, of course, so I have no quarrel with your acts.

To be as clear as I can, my problem is with the system, not those it is designed to help. I think society can do better by you. I hope we will.

 

The big picture is out of my control.  I don't focus on it because there is nothing I can do about it.  So far, so good.  If I go over the cliff, I'll worry about it then.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

10 hours ago, Brother Kaman said:

This statement makes me think of you as the sort who gives the government an interest free loan for a year and is tickled they give it back as a refund.

No.  I'm not tickled.  I'm pragmatic.  The system is not of my making.  I cope and I make do as well as I can.  If I thought it would help, I would consider screaming hysterics.  It wouldn't help.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

8 hours ago, Rev. Calli said:

Greetings to you my brother,

The issue, as I see it at least, is not a matter of protecting your purse.  Again most people who go into ministry really do want to help as many people as they can.  But the problem is that the resources available are finite, so you want to be a good steward of those resources, and use them where they will do the most good.  In the Christian faith, as I accept it, everyone is your neighbor, even those who you may find personally detestable.  Everyone who comes to your office door, or rings your parsonage bell, or comes up to you on the street is a child of God, your brother or your sister in Christ.  So you want to help them with their needs.  But what is best, giving money to a person who you know is going just hand it over to their dealer, or to the mother who needs money to feed her children? And of course, you're right that without the handout the addict could conceivably die from withdrawal, and that addicts life is just as sacred as the life of anyone.  But sometimes we have to make the choice, and it's not easy.  

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli

All true.  At the same time, I need to protect my own resources or there is one more person in dire straights.  Me.  It does no good to love my neighbor as myself; if I don't love myself.

There is one lesson I have learned the hard way.  When ever anybody addresses me as Reverend, I am going to be asked for money.  Just because I was ordained does not make me stupid.

 

Edited March 1, 2017 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[mererdog]

12 hours ago, Rev. Calli said:

But what is best, giving money to a person who you know is going just hand it over to their dealer, or to the mother who needs money to feed her children?

You can't get good decision making by comparing the risks associated with one decision with the rewards associated with another. Compare worst-cases to see if the risks are acceptable. Compare best-case scenarios to see which possible rewards are worth the risk. 

Your neighbors have free will? They have hope for redemption? Compare "likely" outcomes to see how prejudice shapes expectation.

Edited March 1, 2017 by mererdog