Fred Phelps Has Died.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

I would like to fall back on the philosophy of Bertrand Russell.

Why do we say that God is good? Is God subordinate to some principal of goodness? Then God is not all powerful and is not God. Is God good because God says that God is good? Then we are worshiping power.

He said it better. That's as well as I can do from memory.

While we are at it: Deut. Chapter 6 "For I the Lord your God am a jealous God......."

Edited April 15, 2014 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Pete]

I understand Jonathan. I best explain myself.

This may upset some but I believe how we see God is part of being human.

I am convinced that people perceive God according to their own aspiration in life.

If you want order then you believe in a God who wants order.

If you want meaning then you perceive God as spiritual and meaningful.

If you want to be loving then God is loving.

If you want vengeance then God is vengeful.

If you want control then God is controlling.

If you want security then God is authoritative and all powerful.

If you long for a continual parent then God is a parent.

If you're angry then you perceive God as angry.

If you desire judgement then God is judgemental etc.

We cannot perceive God and do not understand God but we judge God according to what we see as our example of a higher being and our personal aspirations.

In one of Bishop Spong's books it talks about a horse that visualises God would see God as having the characteristics of a horse.

Hence, I do not care whether one believes in a God as described by the bible or whatever but I think it is part of a person's human make up to aspire and therefore perceive a higher example to aimed for, even and if it does not exist then it is created.

As Voltaire puts it "If God did not exist man would create God.

Leading from this I believe there is a spirit in humanity for good or evil. Call that aspiration if one will but I am for the spirit of good and loving and believe in this. Hence, for me God is loving and good and I am just trying to be inspired towards that.

Where God is unknown then mankind projects. I am therefore not in favour of doing away with religion or belief in God because I see it as part of who we are as human beings. Equally I am not in favour of another forcing their projection/aspirations/God or Gods on another with threats of hell and damnation because this (IMO) disrespects the humanity of others.

Sorry if this offends some but I guess we learn to speak frankly on this forum and I have tried to do this. Please make of it what people will as that is what human beings do in my experience and I am all for being human but let me also I aspire too.

I believe Fred Phelps has a right to believe as he did but when he moved on to the grief and fears of others then I believe he went too far by disrespecting the humanity of others. Now I believe in God but I do not think God or the unifying essence of all is anything like what I can perceive or describe fully, only in what I can experience. In that light I try to grow.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Pete

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

I get it. God is a screen onto which we project our own personalities.

"God is like a mirror. The mirror never changes, but everyone who looks into it sees something different."

unknown source

Of course, that leads to other questions. What kinds of mind created the Biblical God? Nobody I would want as a friend.

[Pete]

I guess (IMO) the people of Israel needed something strong to believe in. They have a history of being persecuted from many races. They needed hope, a feeling of being strong, security and something that would ensure their endurance under persecution and often slavery and vicious behavior of those who invaded them.

In my opinion, the biblical God was a work in development which was added too over time until we have the mixed result of the God of the bible we have today. For me to understand it one needs to see a history of the people as well as what the book says or does not say.

If you're seen as God's chosen people then you have to explain persecution. It is easier if one sees that they did something wrong and therefore the God of the people permitted persecution upon them as a punishment. Therefore there had to be explanations for this. The view of God of the bible gave hope, discipline and a unity of people under terrible conditions whether that be annihilation under Rome, Greece, or the Babylonians or being tortured under the inquisition. It also gave the same to the early church, but the church got so powerful that many times it was them that were later the persecutors. They were the ones burning people and slaughtering people for differing with them.

I do not see everything of the bible as bad but when it comes to fanatics lording it over everyone then I struggle with it. Hence, I am not prepared to damn or make suffer anyone for the faith I believe in. For me the history of God is also the history of people.

[Brother Kaman]

All peoples of the Earth have created God/Gods in their own image. To look upon the face of God, look no further than the mirror. Thou art God.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

I guess (IMO) the people of Israel needed something strong to believe in. They have a history of being persecuted from many races. They needed hope, a feeling of being strong, security and something that would ensure their endurance under persecution and often slavery and vicious behavior of those who invaded them.

In my opinion, the biblical God was a work in development which was added too over time until we have the mixed result of the God of the bible we have today. For me to understand it one needs to see a history of the people as well as what the book says or does not say.

If you're seen as God's chosen people then you have to explain persecution. It is easier if one sees that they did something wrong and therefore the God of the people permitted persecution upon them as a punishment. Therefore there had to be explanations for this. The view of God of the bible gave hope, discipline and a unity of people under terrible conditions whether that be annihilation under Rome, Greece, or the Babylonians or being tortured under the inquisition. It also gave the same to the early church, but the church got so powerful that many times it was them that were later the persecutors. They were the ones burning people and slaughtering people for differing with them.

I do not see everything of the bible as bad but when it comes to fanatics lording it over everyone then I struggle with it. Hence, I am not prepared to damn or make suffer anyone for the faith I believe in. For me the history of God is also the history of people.

Next time, God can choose someone else to pretend to love.

[Pete]

Next time, God can choose someone else to pretend to love.

I do not think God pretends as God is not the changeable variable here. (IMO) It take people and their changeable viewpoints for that and they project these on God. Like you say the mirror never changes but the person looking in the mirror does.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Pete

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

I do not think God pretends as God is not the changeable variable here. (IMO) It take people and their changeable viewpoints for that and they project these on God. Like you say the mirror never changes but the person looking in the mirror does.

I'm going by Jewish history. I think it's a given that the metaphysics of God -- if we are to use the word -- does not change. On the other hand, the God of the Bible, "who" entered into an agreement with the Jewish people, that "He" would be "their" God, is a different matter. This rascal is not to be trusted. IMO Of course, he wasn't that great a deal for the gentiles either. He does blow hot and cold, picking one side to favor, then the other.

Next time, "He" can choose someone else. Someone who does not learn from history.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[emalpaiz]

To be honest, I do not think that God ever made a deal with anyone. Those are concepts created by human beings.

Hermano Luis

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

To be honest, I do not think that God ever made a deal with anyone. Those are concepts created by human beings.

Hermano Luis

If we are speaking with metaphysical purity, then yes. This is true. The All that is All is occupied with maintaining physical existence. I think that when most people speak of God, they envision a deity of more active involvement.